Hangfires

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Hangfires

Postby ebg3 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:53 pm

Just shot the 450 this afternoon and was getting a slight hangfire on every shot. At first I thought it was something in the trigger like the disconnecter because I was not expecting a hangfire. The load was 39.5grs w296 with a CCI small rifle primer and 240gr XTP mag. I've reloaded this brass 3 times and I don't think the brass is holding the bullet as well as it did when new. FL sizing with Hornady die, not belling the brass at all and applying a taper crimp to the cannelure(sp?) Thinking of reasons for the hangfires:

Streched brass
Too little crimp
Too much crimp?
Primer not hot enough
Sketchy powder

Any thoughts or help will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Eddie
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Re: Hangfires

Postby Hoot » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:18 pm

First thing that comes to mind would be the obvious: FCG cleaned and lubed? Firing pin, spring and alley cleaned and lubed? I used CCI BR4s for a while and found that going to a hotter primer like the Remington 7 1/2 made a big difference in turn-on. I alternated between cartridges loaded with each, all else being the same and the difference was way beyond esoteric. That was using Lil Gun. With the faster 2400 powder, the difference was negligible. Lastly, check your resized case length. If it's less than 1.690" it's out of spec per Hornady and may not be resisting the firing pin strike well enough.

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Re: Hangfires

Postby wildcatter » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:29 pm

CAUTION: Constant Hang Fires are real bad. Check those primers, something is not igniting the powder well. Have they been exposed to any kind of lube, sprays are the worst and they can be deactivated, even through their boxes. If you've cleaned a weapon using spray lubs and have the primers on the bench, well, that's a recipe for hang fires and worst..t
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Re: Hangfires

Postby Siringo » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:59 pm

I agree with the primer issue. CCI SR will not ignite the 296 well. 296 needs magnum primers. I had this issue with Wolf Primers that we magnum and that was the only time I ever had hangfires. Either use Winchester SR (my preferred choice) or Remington 7 1/2.
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Re: Hangfires

Postby BayouBob » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:48 pm

Are you getting any failure to fire or just hangfires? Does the primer feel like it is real tight going into the brass or is there a possibility the pockets have loosened up a little? Just trying to think of other possibilitiew
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Re: Hangfires

Postby wildcatter » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:53 pm

BayouBob wrote:Are you getting any failure to fire or just hangfires? Does the primer feel like it is real tight going into the brass or is there a possibility the pockets have loosened up a little? Just trying to think of other possibilitiew
s.


Good question that needs an answer. If any firing pin energy is used to get the primer seated, like dirty pockets, loose pockets, etc., will cause hang fires. Might want to try a brand new box of primers, if that doesn't do it then try mag primers, then your cci primers with new brass, then, assuming you're still not there yet, mag primers in new brass.

What I'd like to see is testing done methodically, one step at a time, to isolate the problem. When the problem is well understood, I want next to see your science written here and how you got through A to Z. Yup, first you are going to be a Mad Scientist, then your going to become the Engineer, followed by the Poet and finally the Teacher. I for one am very interested in your progress. Go slow and go safely. Go get'em champ!

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Re: Hangfires

Postby ebg3 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:53 am

Thanks for all the replies. FCG is clean, it is a modular unit and appears to be fine. I fired several factory rounds after my reloads and they shot great, very consistant and almost touching at 100yds(no hangfires). Brass is within specs and all the primers seated firmly, I was a little surprised at this because when trying loads last time my last set were a little hot and left ejector marks on at least two pieces of brass. Powder is older but smells fresh. Don't think primers were exposed to solvents. I will try Win. small rifle to compare...may have some Magnum. My loads yesterday were 38grs, 38.5, 39 and 39.5. The hangfires were slightly longer with the lighter load, I don't know if this is true but it seemed that way. All brass when fired was clean and soot-free and I had no failures to fire or unburned powder.
I'm thinking the 3X fired brass may not be holding the bulets tight enough to ensure a good burn with the CCI sr primers. First I will pull my remaining rounds, resize and reload trying Win. sr primers and any magnum primers I may have. I checked my crimp and it was .475" so I may back off to .476" (I think I may try one with excessive crimp just to see what it looks like) I will also try the chamber thunk test. I do have some brand new brass, that I was saving until I had a load worked up, that I can try to compare.
I may be able to get out this afternoon to get the ball rolling.
(All test loads will be with 39.5grs 296 and the same oal 2.060")

Eddie
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Re: Hangfires

Postby Hoot » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:15 am

If you have the choice at your local supplier, get the Rem 7 1/2 primers. They are way hotter than the WSR and a sure bet for positive ignition. I posted a link a while back to some tests a fellow did with them.

Your call...

Hoot

Edit Here's a link to German Salazar's primer images.
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Re: Hangfires

Postby BD1 » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:50 am

This is probably a combination of factors. 296 is well known for being hard to light, particularly in very cold temps. CCI small rifle primers are not known for being hot, The Hornady factory brass is kinda thin, and the factory taper crimp is not very strong. Are you using the factory expander die? Mine was too large in diameter which made this issue worse. My suggestion would be to go to rem 7 1/2 primers, and make yourself a waist type crimp die.

My belief is that the primer detonation is pushing the powder column and bullet forward into the long throat until the bullet wedges in the lands allowing enough pressure to build for the 296 to really go off. A poor situation all around.

I haven't had the problems using .284 brass that some others have experienced, and I've gone to cut down .284 brass for all of my jacketed loads. I don't use any expander die and I get good neck tension, backed up by a waist crimp from a modified Lee 45/70 FCD. This, plus the large rifle primers, gives me very consistent ignition with every powder I've tried. So far the cut down .284 brass is good for at least 20 loadings, and I haven't felt the need to anneal it.

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Re: Hangfires

Postby Siringo » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:23 pm

Every loading manual out there says to use magnum primers with 296. I haven't found one that says different. Like I said before, the only time I got hang fires was with Wolf Primers. Also, CCI Small Rifle Primers produce 100 to 150 fps slower velocity than Winchester Small rifle primers (in my loads)with the same powder charges of Lil'Gun.

Before you start doing anything else -- use the same load with the Rem or Win primers and see if the problem goes away.
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