Sub-Sonics

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Sub-Sonics

Postby wildcatter » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:01 am

Re: Just put in my order for the 16in 450b :D
by artalon » 23 Nov 2010, 19:49
dense they are, Ill give the aimpoint consideration like you I also have an eotech
Im currently building a silencer and working on some heavy loads, how quiet is yours, I realize you have to go to another state to use it
just curious

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Re: Just put in my order for the 16in 450b :D
by wildcatter » 27 Nov 2010, 01:51
artalon wrote:dense they are, Ill give the aimpoint consideration like you I also have an eotech
Im currently building a silencer and working on some heavy loads, how quiet is yours, I realize you have to go to another state to use it
just curious


I'm very interested in that sub-sonic work. I'm fooling with 325gr Barnes Busters. How heavy of a bullet are you using and do you have any load recommendations yet? Have you zero'ed into any powders, you might like over the others?..t

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Re: Just put in my order for the 16in 450b :D
by artalon » 27 Nov 2010, 02:31
actually I was hoping to hear from someone such as your self about this,
I would like to start with 325 to 405 gr but Ill work with any thing any one comes up with, and Im thinking of maybe a rifle powder? (left field ?)
eventually Im going to find or build a gas block like the M14 (sorry I cant think what its called right off, been up for 2 days for super holiday pay)
as for loads, I read something in the past threads about going slow but Ill have to go back and read again.
Any help would be greatly appreciated, I do have a little experience with red dot in a 30-06 but thats a different story
or is it?
Re: Just put in my order for the 16in 450b :D
by wildcatter » 27 Nov 2010, 03:27



Lets take this to another thread. I'm trying to break a bad habit of Hi-Jacking..t

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Ok, Here's the other thread.. My Man Artalon and myself are needing some help. I start out addressing Artalon and a thought he has on using pure rifle powders and or Red-Dot..t


Artalon,

If functioning the weapon, as normal, is a requirement, then Red dot is way too fast. Red Dot will seal the case well and if you don't use too much, the pressures will work sufficiently in sealing the case, but the action won't work properly at all (really, really short stroke). Actually, I've ordered a can of A5744 & SR4759 to try, I think I want the bulk, I think, and their relative, medium slow burning rate, which is, in and around the 4227 play-ground. I've already tried Trail Boss and though it's very bulky and it hit the target speeds (1050fps +-), the action won't work well, no matter where I put the gas port and the hole size didn't help either. So a slower powder is in the offing, but anything slower than RX7 and the case won't seal in the chamber, so pure rifle powders are out (I tried 4198). The normal powders, in order to seal well in the chamber, causes the bullet to break the sound barrier (using 296 and the 325BB, I can't get the bullet to go slower than the 45-70 using the same bullet. Should I go ahead and try lil gun, I'm not confident that using small amounts of lil gun is safe or will accomplish the speed mission, if I use a nearly full case of it? If I use less 296, a pressure wave event is diffidently in the offering, in fact, with the lower, reduced amounts of 296 I was using, I still saw speeds 400fps faster than the 45-70 upper-end loads, using the same bullet and the computed graph showed the start of Pressure Wave Event, sometimes known as a Detonation, and we narrowly escaped disaster.). Hence my wanting to try Accurate-5744 & IMR-SR4759, I need slower powders than 296, the single base powders are allot safer in reduced loads and then again, I might not have to reduce anything, if I can get enough bulk. I hope 5744 & 4759 are sufficiently Bulky, and yet slow enough to keep the port pressures high, and that the bullet speeds and weapon function will come into alignment, kinda like patting your head and rubbing your tummy, on a tight rope, singing Yankee-Doodle-Dandy, all the while. Anyone have an opinion for this direction and or thought process or maybe a better course of action? The reason for the Barnes-Busters are many fold, not the least being, they are full metal jacket and Street-Legal for our troops. I've tried 500gr bullets, but again, to get them to function the action, the speeds are much too high. I'm prolly missing something and the Powder-Heads around here will straighten me out, I hope..t
Safety First..t
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Re: Sub-Sonics

Postby Siringo » Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:28 am

Wildcatter -- I used 5744 and the action functioned -- even with very low (below 1000 fps) velocities. However, it does not burn clean. Lots of unburned powder in the action, chamber and barrel. As a result -- the thing jammed in short order. I have used 4759 extensively for duplex charges in black powder cartridges because of its bulk. That would be worth a try - imo. My thought process here is if we want to go slow, we have to use a heavy bullet -- 400 to 500 grains. The 325 BB may be too light. Do we need to follow the path the Whisper Cartridges do?
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Re: Sub-Sonics

Postby wildcatter » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:32 pm

Siringo wrote:Wildcatter -- I used 5744 and the action functioned -- even with very low (below 1000 fps) velocities. However, it does not burn clean. Lots of unburned powder in the action, chamber and barrel. As a result -- the thing jammed in short order. I have used 4759 extensively for duplex charges in black powder cartridges because of its bulk. That would be worth a try - imo. My thought process here is if we want to go slow, we have to use a heavy bullet -- 400 to 500 grains. The 325 BB may be too light. Do we need to follow the path the Whisper Cartridges do?


In what way/path are you thinking? ..t
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Re: Sub-Sonics

Postby Siringo » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:44 pm

Meaning -- to go sub sonic -- don't they go with heavy bullets for the cartridge. In the case of the 300 W -- 240 grainers rather than 150's.
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Re: Sub-Sonics

Postby HillBilly » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:44 pm

Yes, And they tend to run pistol length gas systems to make it function better with subs...
You may want to try a slightly oversized projectile... A little extra spike in pressure and extra drag may be just enough. A little here and a little there may make the diff... There are many tricks to try...
;)
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Re: Sub-Sonics

Postby artalon » Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:36 pm

Im building a gas block to shut off the gas, Im not going to worry about ejection as of yet and next week Im going to try to get some 405s loaded (still thinking about powder) My goal is 325 gr. I also started work on a silencer design for this application, ones I put together before for the acp, 06, 7.62-39, 50bmg, and 223, worked great but they were all heavy, this one should weigh about 1.5 lbs or so and only stick past the barrel 8 inches, once I get the design done and built Ill share the prints as I cant sell silencers out of state.the proper paperwork is out there to do what you want. OK enough of the legal crap.
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Re: Sub-Sonics

Postby HillBilly » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:53 pm

I was a form 1 kinda guy once upon a time. As I got older I have found its easier for me to just pay the SOT and build whatever I want whenever I want.
If you build it they will come, If I build it... I'll take the damn thing home!
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Re: Sub-Sonics

Postby pitted bore » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:00 am

T-
What are your thoughts about the possibility of using Blue Dot or Unique for heavier bullets at low velocity? Could these generate enough pressure to work the action?

I know you've worked with Blue Dot. I think there's some mention of Blue Dot on the calguns thread.

In my work with 185-gr bullets and Blue Dot, I was looking for high velocity, and ran into evidences of high pressure at the upper end of my load range. However, the lesser charges performed OK, with case sealing but no case head expansion. I quit the trials only because I couldn't get the velocity I wanted. I did not try heavier bullets with that powder. There's a thread in the 450B reloading forum about this.

With Unique, I tried a 12.5 grain load with some 300-grain cast bullets, and it appeared to work well at about 1250 fps. I did use some dacron fluff to keep the powder at the primer end of the case.

I suspect there are sets of data for the use of Unique with jacketed bullets in big cases, e.g. the 45-70. I'll check for this when I've got some time.

Just some thoughts.

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Re: Sub-Sonics

Postby BD1 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:51 am

I've tried Unique with 405 grainers. It did not cycle the action. Haven't tried Blue Dot.
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Re: Sub-Sonics

Postby artalon » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:11 pm

I found some 425gr that were swedged to 452. Ill play with blue dot and unique
the blue dots probably going to be the ticket :D
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