Suicide Run: 200-grain FTXs at 3000 fps

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Re: Suicide Run: 200-grain FTXs at 3000 fps

Postby MarkCO » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:22 pm

I think that you would have achieved better results with a fast rifle powder rather than a slow pistol powder. Accurate 1680 and maybe 2015 certainly look to be well suited to a bolt gun with a 24" barrel. More area under the curve but with a lower peak pressure.
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Re: Suicide Run: 200-grain FTXs at 3000 fps

Postby pitted bore » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:59 am

MarkCO wrote:I think that you would have achieved better results with a fast rifle powder rather than a slow pistol powder. Accurate 1680 and maybe 2015 certainly look to be well suited to a bolt gun with a 24" barrel. More area under the curve but with a lower peak pressure.

Mark-
Thank you for your interest. I'm assuming by "better results" you mean a higher velocity with less pressure.

I did consider 1680 when selecting powders for this work. It's in the powder locker, and I've used it with some trials of 300-grain bullets in the 450B. However, I decided against it for the work described above based on my interpretation of data in the Western Powder Manual. You're right, a pressure curve for 1680 will be flatter and longer. However, with this light bullet, the peak for 1680 is probably too low compared with No.9 to make up the pressure curve areal difference.

Here's what the Western manual shows for No. 9 and 1680 in the 460 S&W. The 460 S&W is a pretty good surrogate for the 450B for exploring powder/bullet behavior when 450B SAAMI pressure limits may be ignored:
Code: Select all
               260 S&W  8.37" bbl

    Bullet           Accurate No.9       Accurate 1680
---------------  ------------------   ------------------
wt    Mfr  type    gr   fps    psi      gr   fps    psi
--------------------------------------------------------
200 Barnes XPB    46.0  2409  56,690
240 Horndy XTP    38.0  2000  59,300   50.0  1985  53,300
260 Nosler PART   35.0  1895  59,000   46.0  1860  51,500
275 Barnes XPB    38.0  2006  57,750
300 sierra JSP    34.0  1790  61,000   45.0  1810  57,000

In this table, looking at the 240 XTP bullet, it is obvious that 1680 runs out of powder room before it can get sufficient powder to boost pressures up to 59,000 psi level. (Even if the cartridges were stretched a half-inch to make more room, it is likely that the light bullet will not provide enough resistance to allow pressures to build to the point that 1680 can burn efficiently. With heavier bullets 1680 performs well, as shown by the data for the 300-grain JSP in the table, and in the experience of several forum members.

If you have the pressure curves to show that my interpretation is incorrect for 1680, I'll be really delighted to see them and revise my thinking. When I start playing with "suicide runs", I like to have my ducks in some semblance of order, if not in a nice row.

Meanwhile, as soon as I can get to the range, I'll try some max loads of 1680 behind the 200-grain XTP. I'll report the results in this thread, but I'm expecting 1680 to run up against the same limits that I found for Enforcer and 296; that is, the case will be full before the velocity equals No. 9's. The light bullet is part of the limiting factor.

Thanks again.
--Bob
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Re: Suicide Run: 200-grain FTXs at 3000 fps

Postby MarkCO » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:28 am

Bob, you might hit the powder capacity wall, however your posted data is for a short barrel. 1680 will still have beneficial expansion occurring out to about 16" of barrel length whereas #9 is done at about 10" for a .45 caliber bore. I have also found that using the stab crimp does boost my velocities as well as provide better accuracy, so with a light bullet, I would definitely be using that.
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Re: Suicide Run: 200-grain FTXs at 3000 fps

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:22 am

Send me the video. I can do the slowdown for you. Check your PMs
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Re: Suicide Run: 200-grain FTXs at 3000 fps

Postby bushmeister » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:36 pm

Nice work! thanks for sharing. I think it would scare game to death whether you hit them or not!
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Re: Suicide Run: 200-grain FTXs at 3000 fps

Postby pitted bore » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:05 pm

MarkCO wrote:Bob, you might hit the powder capacity wall, however your posted data is for a short barrel. 1680 will still have beneficial expansion occurring out to about 16" of barrel length whereas #9 is done at about 10" for a .45 caliber bore. I have also found that using the stab crimp does boost my velocities as well as provide better accuracy, so with a light bullet, I would definitely be using that.
Mark-
As indicated in the description of procedure, I did use a side/stab crimp.

At your suggestion I checked 1680 powder today. The maximum amount of 1680 that I could fit in a Hornady 450B case under a 200-grain FTX was 50 grains. I loaded five cartridges with 50.0 grains of 1680; other procedures were as described in the second post of this thread. Over my chronograph at 10 feet from the muzzle, I found the following velocities in fps: 2216, 2237, 2187, and 2241. One shot failed to register. Average of the four shots was 2220; sd=24.7, es=54.

This is about 400 fps slower than VV N110, the powder with the lowest velocities of the five tested above. It is about 800 fps slower than No.9.
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Re: Suicide Run: 200-grain FTXs at 3000 fps

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:35 pm

Could unburned powder exiting the barrel and flying through the chrony be confusing its sensors? Was there excessive muzzle flash? Either way, the 1680 does not sound like a viable powder for this weight of bullet.
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Re: Suicide Run: 200-grain FTXs at 3000 fps

Postby wildcatter » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:01 am

pitted bore wrote:
MarkCO wrote:I think that you would have achieved better results with a fast rifle powder rather than a slow pistol powder. Accurate 1680 and maybe 2015 certainly look to be well suited to a bolt gun with a 24" barrel. More area under the curve but with a lower peak pressure.

Mark-
Thank you for your interest. I'm assuming by "better results" you mean a higher velocity with less pressure.

I did consider 1680 when selecting powders for this work. It's in the powder locker, and I've used it with some trials of 300-grain bullets in the 450B. However, I decided against it for the work described above based on my interpretation of data in the Western Powder Manual. You're right, a pressure curve for 1680 will be flatter and longer. However, with this light bullet, the peak for 1680 is probably too low compared with No.9 to make up the pressure curve areal difference.

Here's what the Western manual shows for No. 9 and 1680 in the 460 S&W. The 460 S&W is a pretty good surrogate for the 450B for exploring powder/bullet behavior when 450B SAAMI pressure limits may be ignored:
Code: Select all
               260 S&W  8.37" bbl

    Bullet           Accurate No.9       Accurate 1680
---------------  ------------------   ------------------
wt    Mfr  type    gr   fps    psi      gr   fps    psi
--------------------------------------------------------
200 Barnes XPB    46.0  2409  56,690
240 Horndy XTP    38.0  2000  59,300   50.0  1985  53,300
260 Nosler PART   35.0  1895  59,000   46.0  1860  51,500
275 Barnes XPB    38.0  2006  57,750
300 sierra JSP    34.0  1790  61,000   45.0  1810  57,000

In this table, looking at the 240 XTP bullet, it is obvious that 1680 runs out of powder room before it can get sufficient powder to boost pressures up to 59,000 psi level. (Even if the cartridges were stretched a half-inch to make more room, it is likely that the light bullet will not provide enough resistance to allow pressures to build to the point that 1680 can burn efficiently. With heavier bullets 1680 performs well, as shown by the data for the 300-grain JSP in the table, and in the experience of several forum members.

If you have the pressure curves to show that my interpretation is incorrect for 1680, I'll be really delighted to see them and revise my thinking. When I start playing with "suicide runs", I like to have my ducks in some semblance of order, if not in a nice row.

Meanwhile, as soon as I can get to the range, I'll try some max loads of 1680 behind the 200-grain XTP. I'll report the results in this thread, but I'm expecting 1680 to run up against the same limits that I found for Enforcer and 296; that is, the case will be full before the velocity equals No. 9's. The light bullet is part of the limiting factor.

Thanks again.
--Bob




Very true Bobber, but for my money and as I look at your results, a 10-25fps reduction, traded for a 8-12m Psi reduction is good business and does Markco's suggestions have any bearing (i.e. 16" vs 20"), I think yes, or am I not looking at this correctly??

..t
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Re: Suicide Run: 200-grain FTXs at 3000 fps

Postby wildcatter » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:23 am

pitted bore wrote:
MarkCO wrote:Bob, you might hit the powder capacity wall, however your posted data is for a short barrel. 1680 will still have beneficial expansion occurring out to about 16" of barrel length whereas #9 is done at about 10" for a .45 caliber bore. I have also found that using the stab crimp does boost my velocities as well as provide better accuracy, so with a light bullet, I would definitely be using that.
Mark-
As indicated in the description of procedure, I did use a side/stab crimp.

At your suggestion I checked 1680 powder today. The maximum amount of 1680 that I could fit in a Hornady 450B case under a 200-grain FTX was 50 grains. I loaded five cartridges with 50.0 grains of 1680; other procedures were as described in the second post of this thread. Over my chronograph at 10 feet from the muzzle, I found the following velocities in fps: 2216, 2237, 2187, and 2241. One shot failed to register. Average of the four shots was 2220; sd=24.7, es=54.

This is about 400 fps slower than VV N110, the powder with the lowest velocities of the five tested above. It is about 800 fps slower than No.9.
--Bob


Bad Bob,

Just a thought here, if you were Not experiencing pressure problems, those double base powders actually like compressing and tend to light up when done so. Now, I Wouldn't try compressing #9 for fear of getting wild pressures, but compressing 1680, in the 450b "Might" show you far different, positive results.

When compressing those powders you can, experience Powder Clumping, so pull some bullet off your compressed loads and look for the clumps. If you are getting some amount of clumping then back off on the compressed charge some. I personally have not had any problems with mild clumping, but excessive clumping can be difficult to ignite or yield excessively high pressures, when they do ignite! As long as you are getting safe pressured loads you have room to do this. A compression of 2%-5% (Might be able to push pass 5% All through this process, let the clumping and pressure signs show the way or you may rue the day) causes, say 1680, to take off and to really light up, so-to-speak. Just keep pressure margins safe, or else (Kaboom)!!

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Re: Suicide Run: 200-grain FTXs at 3000 fps

Postby wildcatter » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:29 am

Texas Sheepdawg wrote:Could unburned powder exiting the barrel and flying through the chrony be confusing its sensors? Was there excessive muzzle flash? Either way, the 1680 does not sound like a viable powder for this weight of bullet.


Boy this is true and is the reason I say well away from the sensors. Maybe it's just the blast, but I get allot of dropped reading if I'm too close to the screens, using the 450b. Now, with a 22lr I can be within 10' and still get good reading..

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