450 BM subsonic load data

[Kiwi Greg]

Greg-
Many thanks for posting the photos of those fine looking and wonderfully performing rifles. Your customer should be a pleased person.

Looking at the last photo of your handloads, it appears you used no special loading techniques, just a firm taper crimp into the canelures. Correct?

--Bob

Yep I have a Hornady die set just used the tapered crimp die.

Stupid question so don't laugh, (this is the first straight walled pistol type case I have loaded for) There is four dies in the set, decapping /sizing die, seating die, crimp die & what is the other one for ??

Paper Weight.

The expander die flares the mouth a little bit to assist in starting bullets. Experience has taught us that the seating die does such a good job that flaring is not necessary. I have heard that it might have value if you're loading cast boolits so as not to shave the heel. I used the flaring die on my first couple of rounds because I thought Hornady knew best. When you think about neck tension, you realize you will get more strength from letting it expand slightly as the bullet seats as opposed to flaring it and the trying to crimp it back down. Now you're shrinking something you just stretched and there's always springback. So, not many members here use the flaring die.

Hoot

Thanks it makes perfect sense now

[pitted bore]

Greg-
There have been several threads on this forum pointing out real problems with Hornady's instruction sheet supplied with the 450B die set. The last time I checked, the die instructions are still generic for a 3-die set, and do not mention the taper crimp die. They also fail to note that the roll-crimping technique with the seating die must not be used for the 450B cartridge.

The expander die may be useful with jacketed bullets in the 450B, depending on the thickness of the brass at the neck, the neck diameter produced by the sizing die, and the bullet diameter. I accordioned a couple of cases five years ago with new 450B brass and some .452" bullets that had minimal taper or rounding at heel. Just a touch with the expander die solved the problem. After the first firing of the cases, the problem disappeared.

The expander die (flare or belling die) is usually essential when loading cast bullets, whether the cases are straight walled or bottle necked. Most die sets for bottle neck cases don't include an expander die. Lyman sells a lot of their M-dies to reloaders using cast bullets. (Some of the forum members who use a lot of cast bullets will be along to correct me if I've mis-stated this.)
--Bob

[Kiwi Greg]

A mate shot a Red Deer today, the first one for his 450 Bush Master with a subsonic 225 FTX.

He was stretching the barrel a little but it worked out okay

http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.nz/f ... post237145

[Texas Sheepdawg]

Once you "accordion" a primed and charged, nice and shiney expensive 450B case, you're going to start rethinking "Paperweight". I've already been there. It's painful.

[Kiwi Greg]

Just did some expansion testing with the 450 BM into a 44 gallon nearly full of water, it certainly makes the drum jump.

I tested the Hornady 300 XTP, 225 & 250 FTX & the Sierra 230 JHP.

They all hit the bottom of the drum & dented it to a greater or lesser degree

They were all going around 950fps.

You can see that the 225 FTX pistol projectile really flew to bits

I decided to try the 250 FTXs that I have pulled from the Factory Hornady 450 Bushmaster rounds.

I'm glad I did as it really showed the typical lack of expansion I have seen from conventional jacketed rifle projectiles in the past at subsonic speeds.

You could literally load them & fire them again

[Texas Sheepdawg]

950FPS= 45ACP velocities.
I still stand by my opinion that if you want to shoot 45 bullets through a can, it's gonna be best to buy a 45ACP upper receiver.

[3rdgeargrndrr]

I applaud your endeavors to bring the 450 into a new realm.

[3rdgeargrndrr]

To interject my 0.02
Can you shoot supersonic through the suppresor? not at full speeds, but higher nonetheless for improved terminal performance. It will still be quieter than unsuppressed.
Also, Please consider using a wad to compress your powder.
I would be very hesitant to shoot lighter bullets at subsonic speeds just because of the possibility of a squib load if the powder does not combust properly in the huge unfilled cartridge volume.

I think you are leaving most of the performance on the table, Looking at your friend's deer shot,I would hope he reevaluated his bullet selection.
A nominal 45acp projectile would be a wiser choice for expansion.Its still moving at approx 900 fps at 100 yds
Would a better choice have been a really heavy projectile say, a resized .458 flat tipped 405 grainer moving at 950fps? that carries much more energy than a 230 grainer would, still moving at subsonic speeds and intense terminal ballistics.

I have tested 45acp defense rounds and many do not expand from my very short barrel pistol. So I had to change my ammo selection to fit the certain needs of the weapon.

On a side note, for over a year I envy your NZ powder supply, I see powders in stock all the time on one of your dealer websites. makes me cry.

[Kiwi Greg]

To interject my 0.02
Can you shoot supersonic through the suppresor? not at full speeds, but higher nonetheless for improved terminal performance. It will still be quieter than unsuppressed.
Also, Please consider using a wad to compress your powder.
I would be very hesitant to shoot lighter bullets at subsonic speeds just because of the possibility of a squib load if the powder does not combust properly in the huge unfilled cartridge volume.

I think you are leaving most of the performance on the table, Looking at your friend's deer shot,I would hope he reevaluated his bullet selection.
A nominal 45acp projectile would be a wiser choice for expansion.Its still moving at approx 900 fps at 100 yds
Would a better choice have been a really heavy projectile say, a resized .458 flat tipped 405 grainer moving at 950fps? that carries much more energy than a 230 grainer would, still moving at subsonic speeds and intense terminal ballistics.

I have tested 45acp defense rounds and many do not expand from my very short barrel pistol. So I had to change my ammo selection to fit the certain needs of the weapon.

On a side note, for over a year I envy your NZ powder supply, I see powders in stock all the time on one of your dealer websites. makes me cry.

Thanks for you input.
I use 12-13 grains of trail boss, so the case is pretty full.
The tested rounds show were shot into the water drum with a reduced load to better show terminal damage at reduced speed.
As far as I know the projectiles tested can be used in the 45 ACP.
The Deer was shot through the ribs with the 225 FTX the most frangible projectile shown in the test.
The rifle was designed to be used subsonic in the bush to keep the noise right down, so most shots are well inside 50 yards
The Deer was at least double that range and getting very close to the maximum sensible hunting range.
I have had a fair bit of experience with subsonic 30 cal with big projectiles, terminal performance was very very average, it made a 223 look like a magnum.
I also used a 338 Fed with cast & 300 grain SMKs, pretty much the same results, disappointing.
The way forward I believe is a bigger hole with a projectile that wants to expand & impart all its energy into target.
A soft pistol projectile will do this, instead of sailing straight though like a hard rifle projectile.
Supersonic rounds can easily shot through these suppressors no drama, magnums require bigger suppressors.
These Factory rounds were shot through the suppressor.



I want to have the best terminal performance possible, testing is necessary to evaluate projectiles & likely terminal performance.
I will do some more projectile testing in the future.

[Kiwi Greg]

I have been doing a bit more testing/development with the 450 Bushmaster, while I still have the Tikka & I'm waiting for my Kimber to be finished.

Here is a target showing the drop & groups at 50yards between the 250 Factory load & subs, including initial velocity testing of the Lehigh 170.



Here is another I shot today testing the 170 Lehighs at subsonic speeds.
Some times funny thing happen Subsonic with some loads also sometimes the case doesn't always seal that well, letting a bit of gas past the case & down the bolt

Less of an issue if you bring the speed up a little.



I put some 170 Lehighs subsonic loads & some factory 250 ftx loads into the 44 gallon water drum, the 250s really made things jump around



They both opened up well, it is a pretty hard test on the projectiles, but its great to see what another 1100 fps did to Factory 250 FTXs.

I loaded up some of the 250 Ftxs today, the factory velocity is around 2025, they are loaded for the AR15s so probably not going that hard.

I managed to get put 200 fps on that speed with the 12" barrel happily giving 2200-2225fps, the projectiles I found in the mound were well expanded

So they look like they will be a great supersonic load.

This makes the 450 Bushmaster the ultimate bush rifle, short & light with tons of grunt, either super or subsonic