450b Reloading Powders

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450b Reloading Powders

Postby Ed L T » Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:19 am

I would like to find and understand new and different powders that can be used to reload the 450b.
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Re: 450b Reloading Powders

Postby Ed L T » Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:12 am

Hornadys 9th Edition shows these powders:

Accurate No.9....(102)
LIL Gun............(108)
Enforcer...........(103)
WIN 296...........(120)
H110...............(117)
IMR 4227..........(124)
VIHT N-120.......(123)
Accurate 1680...(136)

The number on the right is the burn rate # the lower the number the faster the powder.

Other posted powders:

VIHT N-110..............(107)
Alliant 2400.............(106)
Accurate Solo 4100....(???)
Hodgdon H4227........(127)
VIHT N-105.............(101)
Alliant Blue Dot........(98)
Accurate XMR 5744...(128)

So with this burn rate data can one surmise that a powder with in Alliant Blue Dot...(98) and Accurate 1680...(136) would be safe and acceptable?

For instance Alliant 2400...(106) - Alliant Steel...(105) could the Alliant Steel...(105) be used in place of Alliant 2400...(106) just because thy are next to each other on the burn rate chart?

I have reloaded for several years but have always stuck with the recipe posted in the manuals, but now that powder has gotten harder to come by I want to expand my knowledge on powders!

All comments are welcome.
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Re: 450b Reloading Powders

Postby pitted bore » Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:10 pm

Ed L T-
Welcome to the forum. And thanks for your military service described on another thread.

The powder situation is causing problems for most of us. However, use of the various burn rate charts are not a solution to these problems.

Relative burn rate of a powder is not measurable in a lab. This is why burn rate charts from different sources show rankings that are sometimes markedly different. The charts are compiled by a ballistician or group of ballisticians who decide that powder A is usually "faster" than powder B, and then rank them accordingly. The warning Hornady attached to their chart is absolutely true: The list below is not a powder substitution chart. Always refer to specific cartridge reloading data for the firearm you are using.

A quick comparison of the ranking of burn rates on the chart, and the relative burn rates of the powders Hornady published for the 450B with various bullets will show that burn rate rankings change with application. Your desire to learn why this is so is admirable, but the explanation is lengthy.

(I cannnot find the numbers you have attached to the powders: e.g. "Accurate No. 9..(102)," etc. My copy of the 9th edition of the Hornady Handbook shows a burn rate chart on page 38. The rank number for Accurate No. 9 is 47.)

Your desire to learn about powder is admirable. However, you should probably not start with a forum of persons with unknown credentials and actual underestanding. Contact Alliant and/or Hodgdon and ask your questions of their experts.

I can show you some pressure-wrecked cartridge cases as proof that burn rate charts are unreliable for specific applications, and that the warnings should be heeded.
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Re: 450b Reloading Powders

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:17 am

Since Tim is not around right now, I'm going to step in here and back up Pitted Bores' assertions. I'm also going to add that There's only three powders that I would recommend with the 450 Bushmaster cartridge for newbies.
#1 on the very top of the list.... LILGUN.
#2 and one you had better respect.... 296
#3 is one used mainly for heavier bullets over 275 grains.... 1680.
Anything else, well... You would be better off leaving them alone.
If you study the data contained on this forum, these are the only three powders that get serious attention right now. If you are new to the cartridge, I would strongly suggest that you stay with LilGun and slowly work your loads until you get a good grasp on how this cartridge performs in your specific rifle.
As for the burn rates discussed in the OP, I don't know where you got those numbers but when it comes to safety, the best thing to do is always remember YOUR SAFETY COMES FIRST. From what I've learned so far about this cartridge, I see no reason to tinker with any powders other than the three I've listed. But that's just MY PERSONAL OPINION to keep ME SAFE.
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Re: 450b Reloading Powders

Postby 3rdgeargrndrr » Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:14 pm

Yeah, stick with the numbers in the manuals,

My advice would be to stay patient, buy some factory fodder and stockpile some brass until the powders comes back. the factory stuff shoots less than moa for most of us.
Enjoy and be safe!
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Re: 450b Reloading Powders

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:42 pm

Man! That's no lie! This is 50 yards off a WWII era rickety school desk.
image.jpg
50
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Re: 450b Reloading Powders

Postby pitted bore » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:13 pm

Another point relative to the problem of trying to use burn rate charts:

In response to a similar statement regarding closely-raniked powders, "Paul at Alliant", an ATK technical advisor, wrote the following in the reloading forum of shotgunworld.com in 2004:
Bullseye(R) is faster burning than Red Dot(R) in terms of linear burn rate. [emphasis added]

In some applications Red Dot may appear faster in terms of pressure generated per grain of powder. We measured the burn rated in closed bomb pressure vessels, which is a standard way of measuring the burn rates of propellants, and Bullseye is definitely faster. The reason Red Dot may appear faster in some applications is due to the pressure regime of the application and the exponential burn rate relationship of the materials. I know that may sound like double-talk, but that is the reason those type of burn rate charts are next to useless unless you are just using them for approximate relationships. Please ignore them for any more than that, or proceed at your own peril.


Note the statement that burn rate charts are useless except for approximate relationships. The statement comes from Alliant, not from myself. (The post with the statement is in a thread is at this link: shotgunworld.com - Anyone know any 12ga Bullseye loads? )

The linear burn rate to which the quote refers is a measurable characteristic of powders. However, burn rate charts don't show these linear burn rates. The published burn-rate charts show approximate relative burn rates.
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Re: 450b Reloading Powders

Postby Ed L T » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:51 am

Thank you all for your responses.
Knowledge properly used is always a good thing! With that said I have seen that the Hornady factory loads are very good at what they do with out a dough. I am looking for info that will allow me to answer a set of what if questions.
1. What powders although not optimal can be used to reload the 450b when needed, out side of what is posted in the current manuals and web.

2. If a burn chat is not useful in doing this, what tool or date is available to do this if any. Quick loads what is it and will it help with this?

If you never ask you will never know!
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Re: 450b Reloading Powders

Postby 3rdgeargrndrr » Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:32 pm

Ed,We are as group, hesitant to share loads which can be potentially dangerous as we are not aware of the experience and skill of the reloaders reading our posts. The last thing we would ever want to hear is how someone blew up using our loads.
That being said, there are many loads that we have tried and tested, and are counting on forum members to experiment a little within their reloading knowledge and share within our database.
My new loads I am very hesitant to publish as my gun has a modified gas system and bolt carrier which likely would not apply to most 450 Bushmaster uppers at this point. I am shooting 300 grain and up only with my gun.
I have tried a multitude of powders and all give some compromise in terms of performance, but still for most guns, in terms of being accurate, fast and reliable, Lil Gun still gets the nod.

That being said, be extremely cautious and know that any load attempted may be quite dangerous given a number of variables. Extrapolate data with extreme prejudice. Burn rate charts are again suggestions of the linear burn rate with only one or two variables. Different guns,projectile weights, components,charge weights, pressures, etc will change these variables quite a bit.
even the 460 SW in my experience,although similar to the 450b in many regards, actually flips the burn rate charts in my guns, IMR 4227 works better with the lighter projectiles (250gr and less), but Lil Gun works great on 400 gr. The inverse is true in the 450bm.
According to the burn chart data only, SR4759 or Alliant Steel should work fine, and I have been curious to see any results. the manufacturers themselves will probably tell you not oto try it.

I dont have quickload but am sure some of the guys when they get back from the weekend, would be happy to help you out.

Again, safety first, fun second. Post what you find, and Good luck.
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Re: 450b Reloading Powders

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:03 pm

Tim is out of pocket right now, and he is the father of this cartridge and I'm sure it would be best to hold off and let him expand on this subject.
Patience may pay off in spades and might even save you some serious damage.
Don't take any chances.
Safety First.
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