Hornady Die Problems GRRRRR!

[45-70 shooter]

I bought my new 450 BM upper, a box of factory ammo, put a cheap Chinese 1-4x scope on it and proceeded to shoot one sighter @ 50 and then 5 3 shot groups @100, the worst being 1" ! I also bought the gold plated Hornady 4 die set.

Before going on, I load for 5 handgun calibers from 38 special to 460 S&W. In all cases I use Lee 4 dies sets with ZERO problems.

As the Hornady dies cost a lot more and were also a 4 die set I made the fools assumption that they worked the same.

So I proceeded to take some once fired empties and run 4 thru all 4 dies. (decap, bell, seat and taper crimp). I then stuck one in the chamber, dropped the bolt and could not get it to eject. The extractor rode right over it. A light tap with a 40 cal rod popped it right out.

Next I tried a few once fired as is. Went in and out no problem.

Then I ran a once fired case thru the first three dies, skipping the taper crimp. Inand out no problem.

Now let's make up some dummy rounds. I had some 200 pointy tips for the 460 (.451) and the Lee 300 gr GC sized to both 451 and 452.

Made 2 of each, using just the 3 dies. Chambered, ejected and fed thru the magazine A +. Even the .452GC which had a bit of a bulge, functioned fine.
None of them were the least bit loose in the case (Rubber mallet test)

Then I ran them all thru the taper crimp and they all jammed in the chamber and took the rod to remove.

Since the upper shoots very well with factory ammo and dummies function with no taper crimp, I think Hornady has screwed up.

I have, have/had several sets of Hornady dies for oddballs like the 244 H&H, 220 Arrow and 400 H&H and had no issues.

All my Lee 4 die sets (38/357, 9mm, 44 mag, 45acp and 460 S&W) have taper crimp dies and work perfectly.

I can't find anyone else with "Hornady issues" using the search function. Have I got a lemon or is this common ?

Thanks.

[BW460]

What diameter are you crimping to? You may be crimping too tight.

Woody

[Hoot]

The taper crimp die should not yield a case that has become wider, assuming wider is why they are getting stuck. It should if anything make the very end of the case a little narrower and then only a small amount. I begin by screwing the taper crimp die out a ways and running the case up to the end of the ram travel. With the case up, I screw down the taper crimp die untie I feel it engage the case. I then retract the ram and screw the die down a half turn and run the case back up into it. You can feel the tapering effect begin. I then retract the case and using a micrometer (not a caliper) I carefully measure the degree of taper right at the mouth. Not further down the case than necessary as the taper crimp is only designed to act upon the mouth. I repeat the process until the mouth is crimped down to a certain diameter I am interested in acheiving. Depending upon whether the bullet being used had a smooth side like the 250 FTX or a cannelure into which to drive the taper like the 200 and 225 FTX as well as the 240 and 300 XTP Magnum, will determine that resultant diameter. The generally accepted range I've faound wrks best for me is .478 to .474. For smooth sided bullets it's hard to impress into that side too much and as such I generally stay in the .478-.476 range. Trying to squeeze the thin brass case mouth deeper into the bullet wall only tends to thin out the case mouth more than it was designed to be. In the case of a cannelure, it not only is a serrated surface, it is also lower than the surrounding bullet wall, so you can drive the taper crimp smaller in diameter, down into the cannelure. That provides the case a better purchase upon the bullet. Last example is primarily owned by the Barnes XPB bullets. They actually have driving bands with distinct grooves between them. You can seat those bullets such that you can drive the taper crimp into one of those grooves. They are deeper and sharper shouldered than a cannelure, so they tolerate the smaller diameter taper crimp very well.

Part of loading your own is not to necessarily just carbon copy someone else' recipe for success in their particular barrel, but to use those recipes as a guideline to perform your own experiments finding the precise dimensions both in overall length and degree of crimp to produce the best results in your particular barrel. Remember, despite the best manufacturing processes, no two barrels are exactly the same. Each will have a certain preference. Finding that preference is half the fun of shooting reloads. It may not be the most cost effective process for a person on a budget as reloading costs money, just like manufactured ammo does. It also affords us the liberty to use bullets that are not available as manufactured ammo. While I thank Hornady for championing our caliber's cause, they didn't need to stop with the first bullet that worked. Then again, I'm not in the business of making a profit either. I'm far more esoteric than most ammunition manufacturers are.

Hoot

[45-70 shooter]

Hoot, Thanks ! The error I "think" I was making was to assume that this #4 dies is like the ones for my pistol cartridges. On those, the goal is to restore the complete original case dimension, so the #4 die is set to bump the shell holder. From your explanation, it seems that is not Hornady's goal. They just seem to want to taper crimp on the neck area. By setting it to bump, I was putting a high spot near the base (confirmed by a "smoke test").
Frankly, with the cast bullets, as they chamber fine with no use of the #4 die, even @ .452, I question its use. Have to see if they set back in the magazine but this is no 416 Rigby.

I can't find much loading data other than for Lil Gun, a great powder but rare as an Obama truth. I have 1 pound but would like to save it for my Hornets.
Looking for data that will function the rifle with that 300 gr Lee. I have 2400, H110 & 4227 that would appear in the right burn range. Thoughts ?
Thanks again.

[pitted bore]

45-70 shooter-

Hornady really messed up by not including with their die set a clear set of instructions specific to the 450B. The gripes and complaints about this go back to some of the very first posts in this reloading forum almost 6 years ago.

The problem is that mis-use of the taper crimp die in particular can result in dangerous shooting. The mouth of the case determines how deeply the cartridge enters the chamber. If there is too much taper crimp applied, the cartridge mouth can go past the shoulder at the end of the chamber, resulting in the cartridge being too far into the chamber. The mouth of the case may be wedged into end of the chamber, and if the cartridge is fired, the bullet will not exit the case as designed, and pressures can become very high. Hoot has it right; plan on a crimp so that the outside case mouth diameter is about 0.474.

You will find the term "thunk test" used in various threads on this forum. This refers to a test for proper case mouth diameter, in which the hand- loaded round is dropped into the empty chamber of the rifle. The mouth of the case should hit the shoulder at the front of the chamber with a notable "thunk". Try it with a factory round first to become aware of the proper sound. A reloaded cartridge with a squished mouth will make a different, less sharp noise. The test doesn't prove that all's well, but it will detect some problems.

The expander die is not particularly useful for reloading jacketed bullets. It can be useful for the first loading of new unused brass, both rounding and slightly flaring the mouth. New brass may be too small or unrounded at the mouth to easily accept a bullet. My only accordioned case resulted from trying to seat a bullet in a too-tight new case. Normally, fired cases will not require use of the expander die in order to seat a jacketed bullet. The expander die is useful for reloading cast bullets, of course.

Another crimp problem the Hornady instructions don't describe effectively is that the seater die can be set to produce a roll crimp. (Hornady uses the same die insert in the 450B seater as it does in its 460 S&W seater die. A roll crimp is useful with the 460 S&W, but it can be catastropic on a 450 Bushmaster; the roll crimp messes with the headspace.

So, be careful out there. While the reloading of the 450B is generally analogous to reloading for rimless pistol cartridges, there are some important differences.

I don't think there has been a report on this forum of a completely successful use of cast bullets in the 450B. I know that several very experienced cast bullet shooters have made the attempt, and have reported problems. There's a sticky thread in this forum that may be helpful as you begin your own work:
CAST BULLETS discussions.

Please post your results as you work with your Lee bullets. The report of problems you encounter can be helpful to others who want to make their own trials.

--Bob

[Hoot]

As an experiment, I took an empty case and over-applied the taper crimp in degrees to see where the mouth stopped catching the chamber lip. At .460 it was still catching the lip and I stopped there. If there had been a bullet seated in that case, it would have been terribly distorted. The point being, if you stay in the .47x range you don't have to worry about the case mouth missing the lip. When I got my Hornady dies, over 4 years ago and saw the crappy instructions, I just assumed that the documentation department was behind schedule getting the correct instructions published. It seems they never did correct that oversight. Go figure...

Hoot

[45-70 shooter]

Thanks for all the help.

I fixed the cases that would not chamber in 4 steps:
1. Pressed them all the way into the FL size die with an arbor press and Sinclair lube.
2. Cleaned up the burrs on the rim from the extractor popping over it.
3. Belled the cases
4. Ran em thru the regular full length sizing process

Now they all work fine empty or loaded.

Speaking of loaded, I cast up the Lee 300 gr gas checks. As nobody seems to make .452 gas checks, it takes some messing around and a few rejects to use the Hornady .458 ones. The other problem is: does anyone know what it the right top punch for that bullet in a SAECO lubesizer. I am using the biggest one I have and I have to be real careful to avoid the bullet tipping ? I suppose I could shink the gas checks in the SAECO, pan lube them and then push them thru my .452 Lee sizer backwards .... a lot of work !

STILL looking for a 4227 load with the Lee 300. I have the seating depth set just to bite the lands, so no headspace issues and you can still eject w/o it coming out of the case. They feed like greased kitty litter. Taking some to the range tomorrow. Conservative load of Lil Gun.



As an aside, interesting to note how close my S&W Model 460XVR with a 12" barrel comes to the 450. Quite a bit more powder and although it has no brake, plugs and muffs are needed. The shock wave hits you like a big push. Very accurate too BUT it weighs almost as much as the 450 and is far slower to reload.

[Hoot]

H110 should be a good choice for those 300s. 4227 may not entirely burn before the bullet clears the muzzle, but that is using a conventional crimp. A year or two ago, I was trying to find some way to get 1680 cooking enough to reap the additional power, but no form of crimp seemed to hold the bullet back long enough for the pressure to build. As an experiment, I loaded some 300gr XTP Mags into the lands. It definitely got the 1680 going a little harder, but still couldn't rival W296 or 300 MP for velocity despite the additional start pressure. The 1680 has not gone to waste however. My 7.62x40WT loves it. Never had the opportunity to try 4227, but I know WC has.

I look forward to your range report. Do take a chrony along and get some speed readings.

Hoot

[pitted bore]

... Speaking of loaded, I cast up the Lee 300 gr gas checks. As nobody seems to make .452 gas checks, it takes some messing around and a few rejects to use the Hornady .458 ones. The other problem is: does anyone know what it the right top punch for that bullet in a SAECO lubesizer. I am using the biggest one I have and I have to be real careful to avoid the bullet tipping ? I suppose I could shink the gas checks in the SAECO, pan lube them and then push them thru my .452 Lee sizer backwards .... a lot of work ! ...

... STILL looking for a 4227 load with the Lee 300. I have the seating depth set just to bite the lands, so no headspace issues and you can still eject w/o it coming out of the case. They feed like greased kitty litter. Taking some to the range tomorrow. Conservative load of Lil Gun. ...

45-70 shooter-
If you've read the cast bullet threads on the forum, you should be aware that there may be some problems with the gas checks passing the gas port. Let us know how things work.

There are some cast bullet loads in the Lyman AR Reloading Handbook I mentioned in another thread: 450B data in new Lyman "AR Reloading Handbook".

For the 325-grain gas-checked cast bullet Lyman #452651 they list a max load of IMR-4227 of 29.0 grains. (I'm reluctant to provide other data from the book, because the company supported the expense of doing the lab work that produced the data, and I think the principal way they have of recouping their cost is sales of the manuals.)
--Bob

[45-70 shooter]

I know there are a lot of stories about gas checked lead bullets in rifles with gas ports but in 40 years of doing it I have yet to have any of the horror stories fulfilled. Nor have I seen any actual evidence with photos. Gas operated rifles used (small to large) include 6.5x55 Swede, 260 rem dpms AR, 7 mag BAR, several M-1s, 300 winmag R1, 7.62 DPMS AR, 8x57 FAL, 9.3x62 Merkel and now the 450 BM. No lead shavings, no gas checks stuck in bore and so on. One M-1 did 500+ before the gas cylinder was pulled. It never failed to shoot and the only thing in the gas cylinder and on the front of operating rod was good old carbon.

IMO, it's an urban myth like low number 03s blowing up.

Going to the range tomorrow with the BM and an M-1 with lotsa gas checked cast bullets and my Chrony.

More to follow.