Hornady Die Problems GRRRRR!

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Re: Hornady Die Problems GRRRRR!

Postby 45-70 shooter » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:31 pm

Well the dies are working fine since you folks were kind enough to provide what Hornady did not ....... instructions.

I gas checked and lubed the Lee bullets in a .451 die (the only SAECO I have for 45 ACP family bullets).

As cast the bottom band is .453-4, the upper .451-2

I seated them well out to bite the lands and they fed and functioned perfectly. (sorta)

Image

I started with a double bull 28 x 14" target @ 50 yards. Nothing.

When in doubt, move into 50' and shot the remain 10 rounds. Load was 29 gr Lil Gun WW SR primers.

To say the group was bad is being kind. 8 of 10 keyholed (one is out of the photo). Would be a deadly rig for a bar fight !

Image

Pulled down the gun and there was only one teeny tiny trace of leading. One dry patch, it was gone.

I noted an earlier poster said he sized to .453. I am going to try some with the GC affixed in the SAECO only and the bullets pan lubed. IME, with many decades of casting, keyholing is either due to undersized bullets or a twist/bullet incompatibility. I'm betting on size as cast bullets usually work best 2 thou over their jacketed counterparts.

I also ordered some real .452-4 crimp on gas checks off Ebay, so the Hornady .458 ones falling off won't be a possible issue.

Cheap shooting demands more effort .... for sure.
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Re: Hornady Die Problems GRRRRR!

Postby pitted bore » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:20 pm

45-70 shooter-
Your detailed and illustrated report is really appreciated, and I'm looking forward to more. Please!

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding your methods here. With the cast bullet loads, you are not head spacing on the case mouth, but are using the bullet's jamming into the lands to maintain the position of the cartridge in the chamber, right? At the range, are the cartridges being fed from the magazine? Or are you easing them into the chamber, single loading? I ask because I'm curious about how headspace is consistently maintained shot-to-shot. It seems you're relying on the soft lead bullet scrunching to a stop in the same position every time a cartridge is fed into the chamber. I'm undoubtedly misinterpreting something.

Thanks.
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Re: Hornady Die Problems GRRRRR!

Postby Hoot » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:10 pm

45-70 shooter wrote:...snip...Load was 29 gr Lil Gun WW SR primers...snip...


29gr of Lil Gun behind a 300gr LFN is dangerously underloaded to only about 58% case capacity. That's assuming you loaded them to 2.26 COL. General rule of thumb around here is to stay at 80% or more. My guess is that they were not spinning fast enough to stabilize, but that is speculative without chrony data. According to Quickload, 40gr of Lil Gun (80%) would put you in the sweet spot.

Good Luck and keep us in the loop...

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Re: Hornady Die Problems GRRRRR!

Postby wildcatter » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:22 pm

Hoot wrote:
45-70 shooter wrote:...snip...Load was 29 gr Lil Gun WW SR primers...snip...


29gr of Lil Gun behind a 300gr LFN is dangerously underloaded to only about 58% case capacity. That's assuming you loaded them to 2.26 COL. General rule of thumb around here is to stay at 80% or more. My guess is that they were not spinning fast enough to stabilize, but that is speculative without chrony data. According to Quickload, 40gr of Lil Gun (80%) would put you in the sweet spot.

Good Luck and keep us in the loop...

Hoot


Absolutely!! In fact Manufactures Warning on such powders as WW296 & H110 say not to go under 3% of book. Now, one might say lil-gun isn't ww296, but I say I've seen Pressure Wave Events using all manor of powders. Meaning NEVER under-load (or over-load) any powder or a KABOOM could be in your life!!

..t
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Re: Hornady Die Problems GRRRRR!

Postby 45-70 shooter » Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:07 am

Well those are interesting comments but there is data all over the place showing Lil Gun with loads as light as 25.5 gr with a 300 gr Hornady producing 1500 fps. There is nothing on the Hodgdon website about X% under max. You should use magnum primers and, in handguns a serious crimp.

I suppose a combination of factors could produce a squib load with any hard to ignite powder. Never had it happen in 58 years of hand loading.

I'll await official documentation from the powder companies before panicking. Hornady's own data shows 25.2 gr of Lil Gun with a 250 gr jacketed bullet. Pls see:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... bushmaster

It goes in the same bucket as the 4831 light load blowups that have never been documented by someone like HP White.

Insofar as headspacing goes, with a fat lead bullet like the Lee 300 which is at least as fat up where the case ends as factory bullets, I am taper crimping them as was covered in great detail earlier. The very back end of the metplat just touchiest the leade. If you think an AR 15 bolt slamming forward will be inhibited by a bit of lead, you are in error. Worst case, with a too short case and the chamber locked with the cast bullet jammed in the leade, nothing bad will happen. Anyone who has ever fire formed belted magnums or wildcats knows the best method is to jam the bullet into the lead to avoid case stretching. Back when I had to make 400 Whelen cases, I'd anneal the neck, use various pistol belling dies to go from 308 to 411. The final step was to seat a 41 caliber jacketed pistol bullet in backwards with a normal load of 4064. The the interference poins of contact were the bolt face and the leade. Worked perfectly and actually shot pretty good groups @ 50 yards.

The idea that handgun bullets tumble for lack of velocity is also new to me and interesting. Most authorities on hand loading lead bullets agree that it is either twist or diameter problem ..... not velocity. Some long range jacketed bullets do shoot better MOA groups at longer range as the bullets have to settle down (go to sleep). My super long range 338 RUM shoots better MOA groups at 600 than 200 yards. NOT smaller, better in terms of MOA and distance. 3/4 MOA @ 200, 1/2 MOA @600.

Dig out your copy of Harrison's book on cast bullets. He was right then and still is today.

Back to the range tomorrow with some fatter bullets and will even load a few "hotter" to see if it helps.
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Re: Hornady Die Problems GRRRRR!

Postby pitted bore » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:11 am

45-70 shooter wrote:Well those are interesting comments but there is data all over the place showing Lil Gun with loads as light as 25.5 gr with a 300 gr Hornady producing 1500 fps. ...


With the #452651 gas-checked bullet weighing 325 grains when cast with their #2 alloy, Lyman indicates a maximum load of Lil'Gun is 25.0 grains, which produces a MV of 1555 fps. The starting load is 21.5 grains at 1293 fps. (The lab tests used a CCI magnum small rifle primer, with bullets sized to 0.451". The velocities were taken with a 16" Bushmaster barrel.)
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Re: Hornady Die Problems GRRRRR!

Postby 45-70 shooter » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:46 am

Well, I guess we'll have to agree there are different opinions.

I can say I have a 7 & 1/2" Black Powder Colt SAA that with BP and 250 gr standard "Colt style" bullets has been shot out to 300 yards on a 48" gong.
In the hands of someone with young eyes, it rings it with boring regularity. Unlike a lot of modern SAAs it has a cylinder and throat that match, does not lead and obviously is not keyholing bullets. The bullets are sized bore diameter + 2 thou and lubed with SPG.

My 460 S&W (long barrel) is treading hard on the 450 BM with a 300 gr hard cast, ahead of 43 gr of Lil Gun @ 2000 fps. Guessing all the powder doesn't burn and would wager that the X frame S&W is both stronger and does not have a gas system to work with like the AR 15. With a bipod and the Burris scope, even this blind old man can hit the gong every shot. (it shoots 5 (a cylinder full) 2" groups @ 100.

I'm still betting on bullet size and today will be the test.
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Further Lee cast bullet results

Postby 45-70 shooter » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:36 pm

Loaded 16 of the Lee bullets. First the too big Hornady gas checked were crimped on in a .451 SAECO sizer pushed in just enough to crimp them on but NOT touching the bottom lead band. Then they were tray lubed and pressed out with a Kake Kutter made from a fired 45-70 case. Diameter of base groove was .453.

Shot them @ 50 yards with the cheap Chinese scope. A few gas checks fell off on the way to the target so I am eagerly awaiting the crimp on .452-4 ones as losing the GC causes flyers.

The group shown below is typical. I think it proves several things:
1. There is no evidence of my load being "unsafe", nor has any evidence been produced to support those claims. I use the same load and bullet in my 460 S&W sized to .452 with ZERO issues.
2. Bullets tipping has nothing to do with velocity. It is twist or undersized bullets. (the latter being my problem).
3. While this 50 yard group is no record breaker, it is indicative of promise. Cast bullets are usually not easy but can shoot as well as jacketed within their velocity parameters.
4. These bullets were wheelweight which has never, IME, produced the best groups. I'll be casting some more with Lyman #2 once the new GCs arrive.
5. For the killing envelope of a 450 BM (about like a 45-70-300), expensive jacketed bullets offer little real benefits.

Image
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Re: Hornady Die Problems GRRRRR!

Postby wildcatter » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:04 pm

45-70 shooter wrote:I know there are a lot of stories about gas checked lead bullets in rifles with gas ports but in 40 years of doing it I have yet to have any of the horror stories fulfilled. Nor have I seen any actual evidence with photos. Gas operated rifles used (small to large) include 6.5x55 Swede, 260 rem dpms AR, 7 mag BAR, several M-1s, 300 winmag R1, 7.62 DPMS AR, 8x57 FAL, 9.3x62 Merkel and now the 450 BM. No lead shavings, no gas checks stuck in bore and so on. One M-1 did 500+ before the gas cylinder was pulled. It never failed to shoot and the only thing in the gas cylinder and on the front of operating rod was good old carbon.

IMO, it's an urban myth like low number 03s blowing up.

Going to the range tomorrow with the BM and an M-1 with lotsa gas checked cast bullets and my Chrony.

More to follow.


I can say for myself and many here, your reports will be Very Welcomed.

My only concerned is if you push the lead bullets very fast, is in Leading the Barrel. But if you use heavy, for caliber, bullets. this shouldn't be a large problem. Such as 4-5-6-700gr bullets which can't normally be pushed fast enough to worry about leading..

..t

Image These weight bullets are also available in .458/.452 diameters..t

Image This is Cast Preformance Hard lead 395 gr, .452", wherein they say they push all of their bullets to 3000fps without any leading.

Image And Cast Preformance .485/460gr. Of course we know how easy it is to size down .458 to .452"..t
Last edited by wildcatter on Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thanks!

Postby 45-70 shooter » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:31 pm

Like you, I find the internet to be a very useful tool if used with the care any tool should be.

The "pressure spike" stuff is all over the net regarding high power handgun and short rifle cartridges. It appears to have replaced the fear of reduced loads of slow burners like 4831 that were also reputed to blow up guns left and right. Neither have ever been documented with independent third part tests like the powder makers and those who publish accredited reloading books do.

Being a simple man, I believe that if a current Barnes, Nosler, Sierra, Hornady, Alliant, IMR, Hodgdon (need I go on ?) says a given load is a safe starting point with the EXACT components specified, it will not take apart any gun, in good repair, designed for that cartridge.

In 5+ decades of shooting I have seen three blown up guns. An 03A3 30-06 shot with 198 gr Ball D German machine gun loads in 8X57, a 12 bore damascus Belgian hardware store double, loose as a goose and barrels pitted to "He double l" shot with 2& 3/4" magnum buckshot. Both cost the shooter a couple of fingers. Last was a nice BP colt SAA that the dolt decided to try Elmer Keith 45 Colt loads in. Top of cylinder and top strap went into orbit. Shooting glassed avoided anything but new freckles.

If you read it on the net and it doesn't square with what people who have the tools and knowledge, consider it incorrect.

After all, right on the net, you can find thousands who believe in Aliens among us (not Mexicans), that Bush the younger blew up the WTC so he could start a war to enrich the VPs pals and that Obama will soon outrank Lincoln as out greatest President..

We helped win WW II with only 140,000,000 Americans and now with over 300,000,000 we can handle a bunch of rag heads who bury children alive.

Welcome to Rome ...... it's 470 AD.
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