Thoughts on 4198

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Thoughts on 4198

Postby 45-70 shooter » Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:49 pm

Since Lil Gun & H110 are rare as truth from the White House, I spent some time looking at my powder inventory. WOW ! 5 pounds of IMR 4198. (My 222R favorite)

The general lack of "official loading data" for the 450BM extends to 4198 ..... but reposing in my safe is a S&W 460 Magnum.

Lots of data for it from Hodgdon. With a 325 gr bullet and 41 gr of 4198 it gave 1695 fps from a 10.743" barrel. I made up a dummy 450 BM with the 300 gr Lee GC and 40 gr of 4198. Feeds and chabers perfectly. My BM has a 20" tube, so IMO, I could back down the load and still get the velocity I want. Although the 460 case is a tad longer, the need to seat so much deeper than the 450 avoids any powder compression issues.

When I bought the 4198, I really didn't need it as a pound lasts forever in a 222. Message is: buy any powder you can.

Just bought 3 pounds of 4320 at the local hardware. It's a powder that gets no respect but will keep your 243 to 35 Whelen running when the shelf get bare.

Anyone else have experience with 4198 in the 450 ?

Thanks.
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Re: Thoughts on 4198

Postby wildcatter » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:03 pm

4198 is a little slow, but as you found out with the heavies, one can bring up the numbers, somewhat.

But generally speaking you'll find it goes into diminished- returns quite quickly. But hey, if that's what I have well then, here comes the 4198, and even with the slower velocities you will still kill everything on the planet!!

..t
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Re: Thoughts on 4198

Postby Hoot » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:44 pm

I plugged 4198 into QuickLoad using the only 300gr .452 boolit it had which is the Lee C452-300 flat nose. Depending upon how deep you seat the bullet, IE 2.26 COL says 43gr is max load and will net you about 2000 fps. Getting a repeatable crimp is probably the key to happiness there. At 2.15 COL capacity drops to a max load of 39.75gr, netting you about 1900 fps.

Not sure what seating depth would allow you to catch one of those lube grooves, or even is that's the way boolits are done, but catching a groove in copper bullets allows you to hold the bullet back more until the powder gets really cooking. In the case of a slow powder, that can have benefits.

Do post your results. Just dropped a C note on more copper bullets and have access to all the recovered range lead I want to mine and smelt out. Made about 800 dollars a few summers ago when money was tight, for 3 weeks effort, the cost of an ingot mold and a 20lb tank of propane. Hot work in a garage in the summer though.

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Re: Thoughts on 4198

Postby 45-70 shooter » Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:44 pm

In the new Handloader there are two different authors on the subject of where straight case rimless cartridges headspace.
One parrots the convention wisdom that it is the end of the case. The second (with tons of evidence) says that is BS and cites numerous examples of chambers made longer than factory ammo. Several 9mm and 45acp examples are cited. Most jacketed bullets (and the factory Hornady as well) have no crimping groove and rely on bullet to case fit and a tapered crimp.

The lead bullets I am shooting (the Lee 300) can be set up to bite well into the lands or just touch the leade or even touch nothing. They always feed, they always go bang and a loaded one can always be elected with an unenhanced operating handle. As I bell to ease seating they have a taper crimp. Not as much as the .451 jacketed ones, just sufficient for 100% chambering. They never move in or out at all.

As for the 4198, if it works in the 460 S&W, I'm sure it will work in the 450 BM. It's a quite fast powder, the best in the 222 Rem. Magnum. SR primers, a good crimp and, if need be, a bite into the lands will cook it off in the 450 BM.

Just finished shooting my 450/400 Ruger No.1 with a 400 gr NEI gas checked flat nose .411 over 22.5 of 4198 and 5 cc of Cuban corn meal (very coarse) as a filler. 5 in one small hole at 50 @ probably 1200 fps or so. The heaviest cast bullet in my data for the 460 S&W is 395 gr with a max load of 38 gr of 4198 producing 1596 in a 10.74" test barrel.

4198 ia a great powder but does not meter well. My RCBS electronic dispenser is slower but always dead on (as checked with Redding scale).

Once I get a good Speed Goat hanging in the barn I can get back to some playing around.
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Re: Thoughts on 4198

Postby wildcatter » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:12 pm

wildcatter wrote:4198 is a little slow, but as you found out with the heavies, one can bring up the numbers, somewhat.

But generally speaking you'll find it goes into diminished- returns quite quickly. But hey, if that's what I have well then, here comes the 4198, and even with the slower velocities you will still kill everything on the planet!!

..t


For the Record 4198 is either, the Slowest of the Pistol Powders or the Fastest of the Rifle Powders (kinda-sorta). And is useful mainly with the Heavy for caliber bullets in the 450b. Having said this, in the 450b, it may, with some loading methods, go into Diminished Returns quit quickly, leaving other powder choices, a better pick, but this is only a maybe. I have used it with great luck. And if it's the only powder you can get, then by all means use it! We have ALLOT of residual power, even if you can't push the bullet as fast as you may want. The pressures will be fairly low, making 4198 a great possibility. Of Course, with the heavies, a Great Crimp is the trick to better performance (and low sooting), with the described bullet/powder combinations..

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Re: Thoughts on 4198 & 4227

Postby 45-70 shooter » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:50 pm

Hmm, member makes post on thread HE started and it vanishes overnight ??????

In any case, switched to 4227 as local store had 2 pounds.

33 gr with the 300 Lee produced a 9 shot group that 1" wide and 4.5" high. It is actually 3 clusters of three any of which is <1" @ 50 yes.

Two failures to feed, cases falling right next to the rifle and vertical stringing make me suspect charge is too light.

Weather is far too warm for Elk hunting, Deer wraps tomorrow, so I may set up the Chrony and load some with groups of 3 moving .5 gr upward.

Still way below the max 460 load of 40 gr 4227 and a 300 gr jacketed bullet.
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Re: Thoughts on 4198

Postby Hoot » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:14 pm

Sounds a lot like velocity variation stringing. For some reason, my experience with bullets from 185 to 325gr in my 450b was that the heavier the bullet, the greater the response to velocity in terms of vertical POI. IE for 100fps velocity variation, which is not unusual, 225gr FTX bullets show maybe 1/2 inch vertical dispersion, however 300gr XTP Mags will string in a 3 inch vertical dispersion for the same velocity spread. I've seen that in both 1:24 and 1:16 barrels.

That having been said, any of those 3 groups are worth being proud of at 50yds. Plugging your 33gr 4227 load into QL, you're running about half the SAAMI max pressure for the 450b, so yes, step up the charge. At 92% case fill (39gr), you are still not exceeding the "lawyer approved" SAAMI chamber max pressure for the 450b. Loading them into the lands is a great idea for getting the 4227 cooking. If it were me, I'd head out with loads of 34, 35, 36, 37, 38 and 39. Skip the half gr steps for now. Actually, if it were me, I'd probably start at 36.

BTW, I saw an unexpected forum outage yesterday afternoon, lasting into the evening and perhaps your post got caught in the maelstrom.

Hoot

EDIT: I checked the Moderator log and your post was not deleted by any of the Moderators.
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Re: Thoughts on 4198

Postby kottke_35 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:56 pm

Good experimenting sir! Let us know how the progress goes.

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Re: Thoughts on 4198

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:54 pm

Hmm. 4198. IMR4198? That powder sounds familiar. I need to go through my magazine and check my inventory. It seems like I've used this powder for another rifle cartridge that I've loaded for.
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Re: Thoughts on 4198

Postby 45-70 shooter » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:16 pm

4198 is the best killing machine for a 300 Savage with a 130 gr TSX. It nudges 2900 fps, will hold 3 in 1", shoots flat and just cannot be beat for deer sized game as it makes a nasty wound channel, will break shoulders/hips and IME there are always two holes.

Just cast up another bunch of 300s and will push the load up. Local store had 2000 cci small rifle magnum primers @$34/1000. Now they are on my shelf.
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