New to 450b, loading questions (trying decide 450b v 458s)

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New to 450b, loading questions (trying decide 450b v 458s)

Postby 45lachy » Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:49 am

This is my first post here. I’m one of those guys deciding between the 450bm and 458soc. For now, I like the cheaper .451” bullets. So I have some questions, wondering if anyone could give me some help.

1) I was going to use plated 250gr pills, and keep the speed to a max of 1600fps due to the plating. However, it appears this newish “hi tek” coating allows lead cast pills to fly at up to 2200fps without leading. Does anyone have experience with hi tek coated lead in 450b or other large bore calibers? or in 30cal, for that matter?

2) what about cast in general…what brinell hardness is generally functional in the 450b? Is 18 okay, or does it need to be more like 22 or 24? Do cast loaders use gas checks normally? I think the 40k psi of the 450b would be a lot for a lead bullet to handle, even if it was coated but I'm not sure. I do not cast myself, but would buy coasted cast bullets on the so-called cheap.

3) what about down sizing .458 bullets to .451 or 452? Is this much down sizing even possible? Has anyone tried it?

4) I think the 450b cartridge could launch a 400gr or 500gr at around 1,000fps, any one try this? Would a faster or slower powder be appropriate? How much capacity do you think these would leave in the case?

5) I’m going to go with either an 8” or 10/10.5” bbl, if I can find one. Which would be better..a pistol or carbine gas system? Does either gas system present any issues for the reloader in 450b? I guess I will likely use an adjustable gas block, just because..but was wondering. And what do you suggest..the 8” or 10” bbl...just in reference to the length's appropriateness for the 450b

I also intend to eventually run these large bore rounds through a bowers vers 50 or vers 458, but that is down the road.

6) Any good places that sell a threaded barrel along with a specifically headspaced bolt?
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Re: New to 450b, loading questions (trying decide 450b v 458

Postby 3rdgeargrndrr » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:54 am

I you can be patient, I will be working up a 405grain load (reszied 45-70 hard cast) target 1700fps.but no time until the spring with my schedule.
It will be gas checked opinions vary on that subject, as it has been somewhat difficult to find anything with a brinell higher than 18 in this size projectile. Higher hardness would probably affect obturation and velocity.
I will be purchasing quikload for myself this Christmas to see if really slow powders might be viable/ safer for some of the goals I am looking at.
the 450bm pushes 300grainers past 2000 fps without too much hassle.
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Re: New to 450b, loading questions (trying decide 450b v 458

Postby 45lachy » Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:52 pm

I will definitely be itching for that report, I cannot wait to hear how it goes for...what powder you work with and what speeds you produce out of what length bbl. I’m still in planning stage, it will be next May before I’m fully setup for loading a new cartridge. I still don’t have an upper built; oh and I’ll be firing this from a small frame ar platform, of course.

Now, I'm not going to buy QuickLoad bc there are things above it on my to-buy list (and it’s unusually expensive). But my thoughts on going with a slower powder is that it would minimize peak chamber pressure while still producing a pressure curve that nets a sufficient force to push a heavy weight bullet. If we can agree that the area under the pressure curve equals the total force exerted on the bullet (whether its a steep peak as with a fast powder, or dull gentle fat curve as with a slow powder), then this theory should hold true....but only as long as the bbl is long enough to capture that force and exert it on the bullet. Since I am going with an SBR build (either an 8” or 10” bbl), bbl length is a concern to me..but it should be of no concern for a 16" bbl.

As to obturation, I do not and will not cast my own lead…maybe one day, but not now. Missouri Bullets along with some others sell hi tek coated hard cast bullets in both .452” and .459”. The coating will not melt with any temp produced in any rifle, but gas cutting is still a concern to me. Having said that, I think using heavy weight .458 pills sized down to .452 would not produce a peak chamber pressure that is going to cut the coating or the lead, as long as my target speeds are reasonable. Your goal of attaining 1700fps with a 405gr (sized down) tells me two things: a) .458 pills can be sized down, and b) 1000fps or 1100fps is perfectly attainable with a 400gr or 500gr bullet. My plan is to ask the bullet company (Missouri or Bayou or whoever I go with) to size their heavy .458/9” to .451/2" and then coat with the hi tek, and mail to me for a (hopefully) nominal charge. I’m told the hi tek coating is slicker than snot, which should help with high pressure concerns. I think that if I can stick to slow powder over a heavy hi tek coated bullet, I will have no concerns with gas cutting..leaving bbl length gas system as the deciding factor for success. This should also allow me to get many uses out of my brass (I'm cheap). But back to obturation, I think the coating itself is malleable enough to obturate and fill the gap sufficiently, and give me enough of a seal to capture the energy of the pressure curve….well, so long as they actually put on 3 coats of hi tek (hopefully they don’t do some rainbow tie die craziness, aha jk…those cast boolits guys with their colors. : ) ). For subsonic speeds, my uneducated guess is that BHN 18 is hard enough. Over 2000fps would make me want BHN 22, but I have no idea. I figure if several people say they can push hard lead at 2200fps out of a 450b cartridge with no cutting, then I can do it too..even if others vehemently disagree.

A 500gr bullet with a MV of 1000fps should have just over 1000ft-lbs of force at 50 yards (along with a high sectional density, if that matters). The drop limits you to about 100 yards or 150 yards max effective range (imo).

I am very interested to see how your 405gr testing goes, please post all your results and data on these boards if you can. Or at least PM me! Thanks, and I’m glad it is possible to down size a 458 pill.

ETA: my plan is to keep my bullet costs to less than 15cents for lightweight bullets (250gr and below) and less than 25cents for heavies (400+ grains), I think the hi tek coating can permit this this price while keeping velocities up above plated-bullet speeds.
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Re: New to 450b, loading questions (trying decide 450b v 458

Postby m113103 » Sun Nov 02, 2014 6:00 pm

some interesting reading for you.
:) viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12143#p32330
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Re: New to 450b, loading questions (trying decide 450b v 458

Postby 3rdgeargrndrr » Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:27 pm

right now I'm resizing the hard cast down to 452 in one step, with the HiTek coating, I figure it would be safer to resize in 2 steps,to minimize altering the coating in any way. Lee sells a 454 resizer. Missouri emailed me that they cannot recommend a resize down to 452, but I have done so in the past without any issues.
I have pushed 230 grain coated bullets with poor results. If I can keep the hard lead 405 grainers to within a 2" moa I would be more than ecstatic.

1000fps IMO is very slow for this caliber, I wouldnt know what powder to use that might be safe going this slow, Trailboss perhaps? are you thinking suppressed?
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Re: New to 450b, loading questions (trying decide 450b v 458

Postby 45lachy » Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:09 am

m113103 wrote:some interesting reading for you.
:) http://450bushmaster.net/viewtopic.php? ... 143#p32330

Much appreciated..a good organization of data. Thanks for pointing me to the right spot. :D

3rdgeargrndrr wrote:right now I'm resizing the hard cast down to 452 in one step, with the HiTek coating, I figure it would be safer to resize in 2 steps,to minimize altering the coating in any way. Lee sells a 454 resizer. Missouri emailed me that they cannot recommend a resize down to 452, but I have done so in the past without any issues.
I have pushed 230 grain coated bullets with poor results. If I can keep the hard lead 405 grainers to within a 2" moa I would be more than ecstatic.

1000fps IMO is very slow for this caliber, I wouldnt know what powder to use that might be safe going this slow, Trailboss perhaps? are you thinking suppressed?
Yea I hear you, I think you're right for most of the weights that I see reported-on. Since I am not familiar with this cartridge, I wanted to start at the 400gr level and see what I could learn. But I think any real subsonic productivity would have to come from a 600gr bullet (if anyone ever poses a group buy on these, let me know). And I think a 500/600gr'er would use up a sufficient case capacity..with more traditional powders for 405b..that I wouldn't have to resort to trailboss. I'm not trying to push 250gr-405gr'ers at subsonic speed. I think this hi tek coating has some benefit for all heavy cartridges that range in speed from 1100 to 2200fps. Before, it was the cost of heavy jacketed bullets pushed me away from big bore. But if I can run some not-so-expensive heavy bullets from the 450b, along with the lighter cheaper faster bullets, that makes the cartridge more interesting to tinker with (in reasonable, not stupid, ways).

As to suppression, yea I would like to get a vers 50 or vers 458...I'd suppress the faster 250to400gr along w the subsonic 500/600gr. I think 600gr opens up a bit a bigger world to 450b bc a 600gr bullet at handgun speeds should work well on wild pigs, which are infested in the outer counties around here. People are more friendly to the process if they don't hear loud shots (and then only if they know you), and you can harvest only so much hog. :shock: But also, its a tinkering project. I'd like to see if I could get it to work.

So am I correct that you 3rdgear take a coated .458/9 bullet and size it directly down to .452 in one step...with no problems? Does any of the coating come off or get displaced? Any lead exposed? Does the bullet pass through the sizer easily? Does the slickness help? I think the so-called "smash test" is a good indicator that the coating will hold up to resizing down by .007" all at once.

And Missouri just refused to downsize coated bullets, or recommended against doing it? I should call them up sometime this week.
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Re: New to 450b, loading questions (trying decide 450b v 458

Postby 3rdgeargrndrr » Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:32 am

I am resizing down in one step, with the plain HC
but with the Hi Tek coating or jacketed projectiles, I would recommend using an intermediate size first, 454,
As for the cost, to me, I think the lower volume shooting done with the 450 justifies some of the cost for jacketed projectiles.
I have never and hope to never see someone try a mag dump with 450bm.
Missouri essentially had no comment on sizing down in general from 459 to 452, basically telling me "that would be a very big step", but I shoot the resized 452 all the time in my 460SW with great accuracy (1 of 4 shots hitting 12" steel at 400 yds off hand), and let me tell you at that distance with that gun, a 3# trigger feels like a hundred pounds
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Re: New to 450b, loading questions (trying decide 450b v 458

Postby wildcatter » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:24 pm

Welcome 45lachy,

Good that you have found us.

You ask allot of questions and you'll find that these guys are a pure pleasure to deal with. Keep your language clean and as you learn be quick to also help others..

I'm not going to answer your questions, for fear that it might look like I have an Oar-in-the-Water. But the guys here will happily tell you the difference between the 458s and the 450b.

So, How 'bout it guys, what are the relative advantages/disadvantages??

I'll start..

1). We "Easily" resize all 45 caliber bullets to .4515+-.
Try that with the Socom. I mean ALL 45cal bullets. So we get to use every bullet the Socom uses, be they .458 solids or not, plus all .458 -.454 -.452 -.4515- and .451 bullets resize equally as well and will function our system with absolute reliability!

Something else. Most .458 Bullets are designed to expand at 458 Winchester Magnum Speeds and won't necessarily expand when you put them on a socom case. So, define your mission and I guarantee we have a bullet for that mission!!

Ok, Ok, the oars are coming in, but now it's your turn to tell 45lachy, where the Bear Squats in the Buckwheat!!

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Re: New to 450b, loading questions (trying decide 450b v 458

Postby 45lachy » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:32 pm

I have a lot to learn, and I appreciate all this info and help.

As to subsonic being slow for 450b, I agree and think it is too..in general. I'm guessing longer longer dwell time leading to over gassing or mis-timing of cycle? For over gassing, I hope an adjustable gas block would fix that (I got this block on a .308W: http://slrrifleworks.com/index.php?rout ... uct_id=386 and I like it). For under gassing, I think the 45-70 FCD plus washers should help that, along w slower powder (e.g., 4198? how about 5744 with mag primers? lol). I would have to take into account dwell time and figure out between a 7.5" and 10.5" bbl from BHW. I'm leaning towards 8.5" bbl (pistol gas), leaving about 4.6" dwell time should give good-to-high gas pressure which I can down-regulate with the block.

pm me any suggestions on shops. I need to stop talking and start reading.

PS. I actually like mag primers w 5744 in 308W running light 110gr pill. Pressure signs show up earlier in the ladder progression, but speeds are in line w published loads (mine were 100-200fps slower at various charge weights prob due to shorter bbl, 16 v. 24; the higher the charge the higher the disparity). No unburnt powder w mag primers, but worked the charge weight up slowly. It creates a noticeably lighter muzzle pressure, easier control. Gonna try that combo in a 300B w 110gr'ers, see what it does. Try on it 450b eventually maybe.
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Re: New to 450b, loading questions (trying decide 450b v 458

Postby wildcatter » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:07 pm

45lachy wrote:I have a lot to learn, and I appreciate all this info and help.

As to subsonic being slow for 450b, I agree and think it is too..in general. I'm guessing longer longer dwell time leading to over gassing or mis-timing of cycle? For over gassing, I hope an adjustable gas block would fix that (I got this block on a .308W: http://slrrifleworks.com/index.php?rout ... uct_id=386 and I like it). For under gassing, I think the 45-70 FCD plus washers should help that, along w slower powder (e.g., 4198? how about 5744 with mag primers? lol). I would have to take into account dwell time and figure out between a 7.5" and 10.5" bbl from BHW. I'm leaning towards 8.5" bbl (pistol gas), leaving about 4.6" dwell time should give good-to-high gas pressure which I can down-regulate with the block.

pm me any suggestions on shops. I need to stop talking and start reading.

PS. I actually like mag primers w 5744 in 308W running light 110gr pill. Pressure signs show up earlier in the ladder progression, but speeds are in line w published loads (mine were 100-200fps slower at various charge weights prob due to shorter bbl, 16 v. 24; the higher the charge the higher the disparity). No unburnt powder w mag primers, but worked the charge weight up slowly. It creates a noticeably lighter muzzle pressure, easier control. Gonna try that combo in a 300B w 110gr'ers, see what it does. Try on it 450b eventually maybe.


45lachy, You're ah-doing it and you're doing it gracefully. That is "Contributing"!!

Myself, I'd stay away from that 110gr 30cal, bullet. It was learned (during WWII) that using it to subsonics in an M1 Carbine, they couldn't reliably, silence the target, before it had an opportunity to ring the bell of warning, before it succumbed to the very slight Terminal Ballistics Effects. So, They went to 147's in an MP5 and that doesn't do much better, if any better.

But, say a Semi-Wad Cutter 451-452 or a (http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/store/i ... 45%2F395DC) or resize these (http://www.meisterbullets.com/asccustom ... 2&Start=60) might do the trick. 4198 or 5744 are both fine powders (they are not the most efficient, but Hey they work, under some conditions), now then, getting the action to function and be subsonic is the real trick..

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