Hornady Factory Primed Brass

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Re: Hornady Factory Primed Brass

Postby ARconnect » Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:10 am

Speaking of 200 to 225 grain bullets, I made it to the range last weekend to test my 200 grain XPBs and 225 grain COP bullets over factory primed and charged brass. I was shooting for function, so didn't chrono any of the rounds, nor did I measure groups. I wont go into a blow by blow of my results, but feel free to ask of anyone has any questions.

I loaded 5 rounds of each bullet. All were fired at 100 yards from my Bushmaster 16" upper. I had sighted in at 2 inches high at 100 yards with factory 250 grn FTX before firing the test rounds. The 5 shot factory group printed at about 1 3/4 inches from the bench with a bipod and sandbag beneath the heel of the butt. (next time I plan to fire more than 20 rounds from the bench, I'm taking my Lead Sled) Here are my general observations:
Barnes 200 grain XPB
- All 5 rounds showed less than .002" expansion of the case base
- Shots 1, 3 and 4 had heavy sooting all the way to the rim of the case and the cases ejected between the 2 and 3 o'clock positions.
- Shots 2 and 5 both had minor sooting around the case mouth, and both ejected to the 7 o'clock position. I experienced a hang fire on shot #2 - it went click-bang.
- Four of the five shots were grouped at about one and one half inches with the remaining shot being about an inch low of the group - I expect that one was the hang fire shot. The 4 shot group printed at 3 inches high.

General Bullet 225 grn C.O.P. hollow points
- All 5 rounds showed .001" or less case base expansion
- All 5 cases had minor sooting around the case mouth
- All 5 cases ejected between the 2 and 3 o'clock positions
- Group size was about 2 inches and about 2 1/2 inches high. (this group was comprised of shots 20 through 24 for the day, so I am sure I wasn't performing my best by that time.)

All in all, I am happy with the results. For having only 30 rounds through the rifle, the accuracy is already acceptable. I'd like to tune up the 200 XPBs to reduce the sooting and achieve the best results I can safely get, but I'll have to wait for the new chrono before doing so. (BTW, I checked for other pressure signs after every shot and found none. All primers were slightly flattened, but virtually identical to those of the unmodified factory rounds).
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Re: Hornady Factory Primed Brass

Postby Hoot » Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:20 am

ARconnect wrote:Good to know that there are choices, but not sure I'll ever want to go to 300 grain bullets. 300 grn. is well more than necessary for mule deer and hogs. The muleys where I hunt don't get real large like they do in Colorado and Montana and other notable states. Even though the area where I hunt is relatively thick timber, and long shots are rare, I am more concerned with bullet speed than maximum range from a trajectory standpoint.

Hoot, the water jug tests you did with the Barnes XPBs (can't remember which bullet weight you used now) showed a lack of meaningful expansion below an impact velocity of about 1700 FPS. Since I must use solid copper bullets, I need to keep the speed up above that, out to 200 yards in order to make it effective to that range. I don't know what kind of muzzle velocity one can expect from a 300 grn. load, but would guess it is shy of 2000 fps. Plugging 1900 FPS MV into a ballistics calculator shows the speed dropping below 1700 fps at 100 yards. I need a little more range than that to be comfortable.

I know you weren't suggesting that I go to 300 grain rounds - just identifying the options, which I appreciate. I think I am going to try to live in the 200 to 225 grn. range of bullets.


WRT knockdown power and ethical shooting, when considering what you can hunt with the 200gr XPB, all you need do is ask yourself what can you effectively kill with a .30-06 pushing a 200gr bullet? Trajectory excluded for the obvious differences, if you can take it with a .30-06 pushing a 200gr, the 450b will likewise do it. A lot of folks I talk to have a reasonable familiarity with the .30-06, so its a useful comparison when trying to describe the 450b's power. If that doesn't sink in, mention a 450b pushing a 300gr bullet as being on par with a Hot .45-70 load using a 300gr bullet. Lots you can take with that also.

As WC has pointed out time and again, the bullets are lethal far beyond where they stop opening up. Lots of things are killed by FMJs that don't look a whole lot different coming out than they did going in. ;)

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Re: Hornady Factory Primed Brass

Postby ARconnect » Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:54 am

Hoot wrote:WRT knockdown power and ethical shooting, when considering what you can hunt with the 200gr XPB, all you need do is ask yourself what can you effectively kill with a .30-06 pushing a 200gr bullet? Trajectory excluded for the obvious differences, if you can take it with a .30-06 pushing a 200gr, the 450b will likewise do it. A lot of folks I talk to have a reasonable familiarity with the .30-06, so its a useful comparison when trying to describe the 450b's power. If that doesn't sink in, mention a 450b pushing a 300gr bullet as being on par with a Hot .45-70 load using a 300gr bullet. Lots you can take with that also.

As WC has pointed out time and again, the bullets are lethal far beyond where they stop opening up. Lots of things are killed by FMJs that don't look a whole lot different coming out than they did going in. ;)

Hoot


Hoot, I agree with all you have said and I am not concerned with the ability of the 200 grn XPB to take the game I am after from a bullet weight or down range energy standpoint - I have every confidence it will so long as I do my part.

Also, I am familiar with and have no reason to doubt Wildcatter's proclamation that the FMJs are "Bang Flop" deadly without expansion, but I understand that to be true with round nose or truncated cone FMJs. Do you also believe the same would be true with the spire point design of the XPBs? I am not saying they wouldn't, but do have my concerns due to unsavory experiences with other all-copper bullets. I know this is an Apples and Cucumbers comparison, but my experience with all-copper rounds (175 grn Barnes TSX) in 7mm Remington Mag. have not been good: Through and through passes and the deer runs off like he has been bit by a heel fly. On two occasions I put a TSX through the Heart/Lung vital zone (one at about 30 yards, and one at about 125 yards), saw the bucks hunch and then run off - both finding cover before I could get a follow up shot. I tracked them both, one for a half mile before I lost the trail, and never found any blood. The one deer I did anchor with the TSXs, I hit four times before he went down. The entry and exit wounds weren't apparent until I skinned him - two were through the boiler room, one was too far back and one went through the base of the neck. This is the reason I have come to the 450 to begin with.

It could very well be that my concerns are unfounded and irrational, and just a result of my unfortunate experiences with the 7 mag. I'll probably have to have an unquestionable success or two with the XPBs before I can shake it though.
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Re: Hornady Factory Primed Brass

Postby wildcatter » Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:39 am

ARconnect wrote:
Hoot wrote:WRT knockdown power and ethical shooting, when considering what you can hunt with the 200gr XPB, all you need do is ask yourself what can you effectively kill with a .30-06 pushing a 200gr bullet? Trajectory excluded for the obvious differences, if you can take it with a .30-06 pushing a 200gr, the 450b will likewise do it. A lot of folks I talk to have a reasonable familiarity with the .30-06, so its a useful comparison when trying to describe the 450b's power. If that doesn't sink in, mention a 450b pushing a 300gr bullet as being on par with a Hot .45-70 load using a 300gr bullet. Lots you can take with that also.

As WC has pointed out time and again, the bullets are lethal far beyond where they stop opening up. Lots of things are killed by FMJs that don't look a whole lot different coming out than they did going in. ;)

Hoot


Hoot, I agree with all you have said and I am not concerned with the ability of the 200 grn XPB to take the game I am after from a bullet weight or down range energy standpoint - I have every confidence it will so long as I do my part.

Also, I am familiar with and have no reason to doubt Wildcatter's proclamation that the FMJs are "Bang Flop" deadly without expansion, but I understand that to be true with round nose or truncated cone FMJs. Do you also believe the same would be true with the spire point design of the XPBs? I am not saying they wouldn't, but do have my concerns due to unsavory experiences with other all-copper bullets. I know this is an Apples and Cucumbers comparison, but my experience with all-copper rounds (175 grn Barnes TSX) in 7mm Remington Mag. have not been good: Through and through passes and the deer runs off like he has been bit by a heel fly. On two occasions I put a TSX through the Heart/Lung vital zone (one at about 30 yards, and one at about 125 yards), saw the bucks hunch and then run off - both finding cover before I could get a follow up shot. I tracked them both, one for a half mile before I lost the trail, and never found any blood. The one deer I did anchor with the TSXs, I hit four times before he went down. The entry and exit wounds weren't apparent until I skinned him - two were through the boiler room, one was too far back and one went through the base of the neck. This is the reason I have come to the 450 to begin with.

It could very well be that my concerns are unfounded and irrational, and just a result of my unfortunate experiences with the 7 mag. I'll probably have to have an unquestionable success or two with the XPBs before I can shake it though.


Interesting Conundrum..

I too have seen the many failures in sub-caliber Munitions. Bullet selection is all too important, where expansion is vital. Moose bullets should not be used on deer, if expansion could or should, be paramount. The 45 cal bullets are already much bigger, in dia, than a 7mm gets after expansion.

When a sub-munition expands it also slowing down very quickly, with possibly not enough penetration, making some kills impossible. Indeed the last 7mm Mag shot, I personally witnessed, I was standing on the south end of a north facing Elk, some distance behind it. The shooter was using one of those famed 175 gr bullets, as I remember. When the shot was fired I was looking at the Elk, with Binos, I think. But either way, I saw blood steam coming out both sides of the animal. The animal never quit eating and finally just tipped over. the same shots bang flops them with the 45, at our speeds, and expansion is a non-essential, for us, but still can be beneficial. Which is why I like fmj flat pointed bullets. The flat points do more destruction than an expanded bullet, with high penetration. The best of both worlds, usually.

So, to sum it up, think of our 45cal unfired bullet, as an already expanded 7mm or 30cal or 338, or even the 375 cal., sometimes (meaning under some circumstances, the 375 can open up slightly larger in dia.). But, in all cases, bullet selection is paramount, especially in the Sub-Munition Training Rounds!

I have never felt under gunned with an high speed 45 cal. And "Bang-Flop" has always ruled the day, for me. I might add all this makes bullets selection less important for us, oh there are some bullets for some missions that work better, over-all, than others, but the 450 Bushmaster is "Very" forgiving in this regard..

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Re: Hornady Factory Primed Brass

Postby Hoot » Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:13 am

One small point worth shining a light upon a little more is the value of projectile diameter in the role of lethality. The slow moving .45 ACP will stop an advancing threat with a center of mass hit (or two) more effectively than a slow moving .38 SPL. That's why the .45 ACP was adopted by the military back in its infancy. The more area a bullet has to move out of its way as it penetrates, the more and quicker the shock to the system it is penetrating.

I may depart with others here on this perspective, but when I'm at the range with my 450b (often) and it draws the other folks in (often), when they ask me what I use it for, my response is always "Brush hunting in the thick, northern Minnesota woods", which rarely affords a shot beyond 50 yards. I do not look to my 450b for long range hunting. IMHO, That's not playing to its strength. I take multiple rifles when I head up to deer camp and the one that goes out with me depends upon where I'm heading that morning. Often I put two in the truck. One for quiet morning and one for active afternoon once they are getting moved by all the two-leggers tromping around. I've seen some impressive hunting reports by members here showing effective kills way beyond where I would feel confident taking a shot with the 450b. Its most often a testimony to their ability to judge wind and trajectory, combined with intelligent shot placement. I've also read reports here where good hits have yielded run offs, some never to be retrieved. Those same mixed results can be read about on just about any caliber fanboy forum using both jacketed and all copper projectiles. If I could only take my 450b with me; under conditions where I did not know whether I would have a wooded or open terrain shot; I would would head out with 200gr XPBs in the rifle and a second mag of 225 FTXs for long shots. My experience has mostly been that when I spot deer in the distance, they generally haven't spotted me yet (or I would never see them) and they are at ease. I can clear an AR pretty quietly, slip in a different mag and charge it. That's where the value of a forward assist really shines. I don't live in a state that has copper only requirements (yet), but as I've said, I'm not fond of eating lead, so I take copper whenever I can.

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Re: Hornady Factory Primed Brass

Postby Kobyashu » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:00 am

Hoot,

I am pretty new to forums, so forgive me if I posted this in the wrong place. I thought it might be a good location, but didn't want to hijack a thread. That stated, I pretty much lurk here on the board and glean tons of information, and haven't had anything new to contribute, so I don't post much! First, thanks so much for all of your efforts and especially your answers here. I typically shoot the 225 FTX bullet, as it is inexpensive and I can hit one ragged hole at 300 yards all day long. I worked my loads up, based on the information here in the forum. Starting slowly, one grain at a time, until I had an EXTREMELY accurate load. It works like a champ.

That stated, I've recently been shooting steel reactive targets with friends (they are using the AR-10 with .308 match ammo) and my .450 outshoots them every time. What is concerning for me, is at 300 yards, my bullets don't seem to have ANY penetration on a steel target, and the .308's are either punching through the steel or gouging them quite deeply. Is this normal for the .225 FTX? The reason I ask, is that I am getting ready to go hog hunting (second time) and I want to make sure that I get good penetration. Previously, in this thread, you said that a FMJ truncated cone or RN bullet provided great penetration. Can you recommend a particular bullet, the may perform (accuracy-wise) like the .225 FTX? I'd appreciate any advice. Hog hunting is calling...
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Re: Hornady Factory Primed Brass

Postby Jim in Houston » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:05 pm

Bullet selection is very important, as I found out when I got two solid hits using the factory 250 gr FTX on an elk at 200 yards. I never found it after sighting it once, where it had first bedded down, before it moved on. My conclusion was that the FTX lacked penetration on an elk at that range. A 30-06 with a 180 gr Hornady Interlock SP or a Nosler Partition would have been a better choice.

This reflects what you observed with the steel plates.

I am with Hoot on the effectiveness of the 450BM at closer ranges, especially on deer and maybe on somewhat longer ranges on pigs, but my next elk hunt will be with my 30-06. You can read a lot more here - http://450bushmaster.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14479&p=46732&hilit=unsatisfactory+elk+hunt#p46732.
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Re: Hornady Factory Primed Brass

Postby Hoot » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:40 am

Kobyashu wrote:...snip... Previously, in this thread, you said that a FMJ truncated cone or RN bullet provided great penetration. Can you recommend a particular bullet, the may perform (accuracy-wise) like the .225 FTX? I'd appreciate any advice. Hog hunting is calling...
- Kobyashu


Kobyashu, Sorry to be so long replying, but I am somewhat sidelined with an injured hip that refuses to heal after 4 weeks and awaiting an MRI.
I've not had any experience with the truncated FMJs and can only address the round nose ones. IMHO, unlike the FTX hollow points with a ballistic tip in the hole, the FMJs have no air space in them and that makes for a relatively dense, short bullet for the same, or close weight to an FTX bullet. As such, they don"t have a lot of "at caliber" parallel bearing surface with which to seat in the case. Add to that, they have no cannelure to crimp into for additional retention. That's the reason I suspect the FMJs will not shoot as accurate as an FTX. Though they wont do much harm to steel, the FTX bullets are very capable of taking large game like a hog. I read about hunters trying to go up against hogs with .223 hollow points and with dismal penetration results compare to their FMJ equivalent. Consideration needs to be given to their weight. A 55gr bullet, while devastating on varmints does not equal a load that is devastating on all game, especially one with a thick cartilage plate in front of their vitals. The 225 FTX by comparison has 4 times the weight and that equates to lot more momentum to drive, even when expanded through to the tender vittles. No one wants to go on a hunt only to discover that their choice of ammunition that they take with them is ineffective, I get that. I think you may be surprised at the effectiveness of any of the three FTX weights against a tough critter like hogs. While I'm not paying for your hunt, I would still say to take your best FTX load out and put it to the test. I will however never take a shot at a hog at 300 yds with my 450b. I have other rifles I would take instead, if that were the only range where I would get a shot. At 300 yards, a hog is unlikely to turn and run 300 yards toward whoever shot him just to get even or because he feels imperiled. That's assuming he can stay focused on where the shot came from when wounded and in great pain, before the shot's report ever reaches him. He's going put some distance between him and where the pain was inflicted and beat feet for a thicket. Obviously, different rules apply when you're near each other and he sees you shoot him. Then you beat feet for the nearest pickup truck. ;)

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Re: Hornady Factory Primed Brass

Postby Stealthshooter » Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:38 pm

Jim in Houston wrote:Bullet selection is very important, as I found out when I got two solid hits us. ing the factoruger 250 gr FTX on an elk at 200 yards. I never found it after sighting it once, where it had first bedded down, before it moved on. My conclusion was that the FTX lacked penetration on an elk at that range. A 30-06 with a 180 gr Hornady Interlock SP or a Nosler Partition would have been a better choice.

This reflects what you observed with the steel plates.

I am with Hoot on the effectiveness of the 450BM at closer ranges, especially on deer and maybe on somewhat longer ranges on pigs, but my next elk hunt will be with my 30-06. You can read a lot more here - http://450bushmaster.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14479&p=46732&hilit=unsatisfactory+elk+hunt#p46732.


That really surprises me! Id have zero qualms about shooting an elk at 400 yards with my 300 grain sst's.
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Re: Hornady Factory Primed Brass

Postby Jim in Houston » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:39 pm

Stealthshooter wrote:
Jim in Houston wrote:Bullet selection is very important, as I found out when I got two solid hits us. ing the factoruger 250 gr FTX on an elk at 200 yards. I never found it after sighting it once, where it had first bedded down, before it moved on. My conclusion was that the FTX lacked penetration on an elk at that range. A 30-06 with a 180 gr Hornady Interlock SP or a Nosler Partition would have been a better choice.

This reflects what you observed with the steel plates.

I am with Hoot on the effectiveness of the 450BM at closer ranges, especially on deer and maybe on somewhat longer ranges on pigs, but my next elk hunt will be with my 30-06. You can read a lot more here - http://450bushmaster.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14479&p=46732&hilit=unsatisfactory+elk+hunt#p46732.


That really surprises me! Id have zero qualms about shooting an elk at 400 yards with my 300 grain sst's.


Yes, the BM450 may perform adequately with a better penetrating bullet, but I would really need to think about the loss of velocity / energy and drop at 400 yards. Using the Hornady Ballistic Calculator, the bullet characteristics for the 300 gr SST, the data for a 450 BM 300 gr bullet (not the SST, max velocity of 1900 fps) from the Hornady Reloading Manual, and sighted in at 200 yards, the drop at 400 yards is over 6 feet (73.4 inches) and the energy has gone from 2405 ft-lbs to 741 ft-lbs at 1055 fps.
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