.451 bullets

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.451 bullets

Postby Cutright » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:48 pm

I recently got some muzzleloader bullets from Barnes that are .451". Do you think they will have the same velocity/accuracy as .452" bullets?
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Re: .451 bullets

Postby kottke_35 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:15 pm

What bullets were they that you picked up? I ask because a lot of Barnes bullets have been tested and someone may have the data you're looking for if you post specifics.

The XPB pistol bullets have preformed great for many members including myself. Good accuracy and velocity.

B.
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Re: .451 bullets

Postby Cutright » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:06 pm

They are TMZ muzzleloader bullets 250gr
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Re: .451 bullets

Postby Al in Mi » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:17 am

I've shot a few of the TEZ's with no issues, as usual, start low and go, you will be fine.
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Re: .451 bullets

Postby pitted bore » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:30 pm

Cutright wrote:I recently got some muzzleloader bullets from Barnes that are .451". Do you think they will have the same velocity/accuracy as .452" bullets?

Cutright-
This is a difficult question to answer the way you have phrased it.

If you're asking whether bullets of 0.451" diameter are likely to have some problem because the 450B specs are for bullets of 0.452" diameter, then you have nothing to be concerned about. The SAAMI specs for the 450B cartridges are a max diameter of 0.4525", with allowable variation of minus 0.0030", which works out to 0.4495". Many of the copper bullets from Barnes and General/C.O.P. are less than 0.4510", and have worked OK for most who have posted here about them.

If you're asking whether .452 and ,451 bullets respond to a given load (case, primer, powder, charge, COL, etc.) in the same way, the answer is almost certainly not. Bullets of different types from different makers don't have the same accuracy and/or velocity. It depends on the load and the rifle. If you specify precisely which .451 muzzleloader bullets you would like our thoughts on, comparing them with which specific .452 bullet, we might be able to make some comparison based on our experiences.

One other point: Some (most? all?) Barnes ML bullets do not have the relief bands that are typical of their rifle and handgun bullets. The ML bullets resemble the original Barnes X-bullets in this. The smooth-sided all-copper bullets my run at higher pressures than bullets of equal weight, either banded mono-metal or jackets. Be cautious therefore.

The original straight-sided all-copper bullets were also noted for leaving a lot of copper fouling in the bore. This may or may not occur in your rifle with the specific ML bullets you have.

Let us know what you find out from your loads. Thanks.
--Bob
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Re: .451 bullets

Postby Cutright » Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:12 pm

The Barnes' shot well. They shot 2" higher than the FTX and opened up a little. I need to shoot more to be sure. My gun seems to like a dirty barrel, so the difference may be because of this. I guess I need to clean the bore after every group. How do you guys shoot for groups? Keep the barrel dirty or clean between groups?
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Re: .451 bullets

Postby Hoot » Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:17 pm

Cutright wrote:The Barnes' shot well. They shot 2" higher than the FTX and opened up a little. I need to shoot more to be sure. My gun seems to like a dirty barrel, so the difference may be because of this. I guess I need to clean the bore after every group. How do you guys shoot for groups? Keep the barrel dirty or clean between groups?


This is another one of those loosely defined questions.

We are talking an AR, so some high precision, bolt action, BR techniques are probably overkill. That having been said, I generally store my bores wet with Kroil and patch them dry at the range just before I shoot. Yes, I take my cleaning platform with me since I like to do an end-of-session, thorough cleaning, while the barrel is still warm, but that's me. A lot of what follows depends upon how anal retentive I'm feeling for the particular experiment I'm running. Generally, I load up 6 rounds for every 5-shot group I intend to shoot. Starting with the dry patched bore, I shoot a fouler. After shooting the remaining 5-shots for keeps, I do a brief 1-wet, 2-dry patch pass and shoot the extra round from the next run as a fouler. I then proceed to shoot the remaining 5 for keeps. In the warmer months, that has the added bonus of allowing the barrel to cool back down some. With the pistol type ball powders we use in the 450b, there is a degree of temperature sensitivity you don't see with extruded rifle powders or blends that are temp-comped by design like Hodgdon Extreme Powders. As the barrel warms up, I try my best to not let each round sit in the hot chamber too long so it doesn't soak up too much heat. To that end, I confess that I single load rounds when testing for groups. Not the same process as I use for function testing or general shooting for fun using blammo ammo.

This process is when I'm not being overly attentive to controlling as many variables as possible. :? You should see when I'm testing for extreme accuracy from a bolt gun. :lol:

Safe to say, I tend to over-control the variables and again, its probably lost in an AR platform. You should see how fastidious and precise I am with my brass prep though. I never change that regimen as it affords me a strong sense of confidence that what I'm going to shoot is as good a representation of the experiment as possible. The journey is as much fun as when I get to the destination. That's how I look at it. The 450b is so forgiving, we can shoot 5-shot runs where one has a velocity variation of say, 70 fps and it still shoots a ragged 100yd group and the next has only a 15 fps velocity variation and it doesn't shoot any better. Never get away with that using some 55gr pills in a smaller caliber. That's what I love about this mortar caliber. ;)

Find the middle where you're comfortable with your results without making it too much like work.

Hoot


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Re: .451 bullets

Postby Cutright » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:12 am

Thanks Hoot, that helps a lot. What is your case prep method. You're spot on on the foregiveness of this round. I haven't found a load that it doesn't shoot well. I was never expecting this kind of accuracy when I purchased it
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Re: .451 bullets

Postby Cutright » Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:19 pm

On another note, does the location and distance of the spent cases give any valuable info on the loads? I've noticed a difference between loads as to where the brass lands
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Re: .451 bullets

Postby Hoot » Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:03 pm

Cutright wrote:On another note, does the location and distance of the spent cases give any valuable info on the loads? I've noticed a difference between loads as to where the brass lands


Some folks read them like tea leaves. ;)
I catch all my spent brass for reloading, so I've never paid attention to whether they eject at 1, 3 or 5 o'clock. The few times I forgot to put the brass catcher on, the only thing I noticed was how over-powered the ejector spring is, since they landed 3 shooting positions away. Don't recall whether they were forward or backward of broadside.

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