Hoot wrote:The " FCD's from other calibers" isn't how the modified FCD is implemented when reloading the 450b. That's an entire story of it's own.
ya i'll agree, it was a poorly worded choice, i tend to lose something in translation in the wee hours. i meant the FCD made from a modified 45-70 die. in general i was refering to using a lee FCD die to crimp vs the hornady one.
The instructions that come with the Hornady New Dimension die set for the 450b are infamous for being next to useless.
ya i noticed that with the .204 and 300 blk dies of their that i have. calling them 'being next to useless' is pretty nice way of putting it
I do like their seating die, though it's a little more complicated in it's internal workings. Key to successful 450b reloading is not to screw the seating die down to where it imparts a roll crimp. The taper crimp is to be applied after the seating step. I run two single stage presses alongside each other, so that's a little faster producing finished product. The taper crimp as it's name implies, introduces a slight taper profile to the case starting at the mouth and going down the sides about 1/3 of the way to the head, in the hopes of creating more retentitivity between the case and the bullet. If you elect to use the expander prior to seating the bullet, again an entire story all it's own, it also removes the bell in the process.
as i mentioned (and poorly worded again) i'm familiar with using the Lee FCD die in several calibers. I load cast and plated along with jacketed bullets in both rifle and handgun and as such had to learn to use a crimp properly to remove the belling necessary to seat these types of bullets correctly. I do NOT roll crimp anything. ive always felt - based on my early experience with improperly setup seating dies when i frist started reloading - that trying to crimp AND seat at the same time can cause more problems than it helps.
i do most of my reloading these days on my hornady LNL AP. I'm spoiled by the case feeder. so i keep station 5 as the dedicated crimping station when loading. however i only do true "one pass" progressive loading for pistol plinking rounds. I process rifle stuff in different stages. a brass prep stage - universal decapper, stainless tumble to clean, FL resize, trim/chamfer/deburr and primer pocket maintenance if necesssary. then once i have a pile of pretty brass ready to reload i regear the press and setup for reloading with a expander in station one (where needed), powder drop in 2, powder cop in station 3, seater die in 4 (no crimping) and a FCD in station 5. sometimes i prime on press, other times i hand prime. depends on my mood
Given the stopping power of a rifle speed bullet with a large frontal area like the 450b, there is little to gain from sweating over groups that cannot be reduced to less than 2" at 100 yards. That will put meat in the freezer. If you choose to shoot a much greater distances, then yeah, it can matter.
amen to that. hunting accuracy vs shooting pretty groups on paper are two separate issues. i have no expectations of using this caliber as a precision platform. short, fat bullets dont tend to lead to optimal accuracy situations. otherwise benchrest shooters wouldn't be questing for heavy for caliber (long) bullets with super BC's. I'll be more than pleased to be in the 1-2 moa range with this caliber. I have other calibers that shoot long skinny bullets for playing more of the accuracy game
i just want a rifle that i can hunt with in our 'restricted caliber' zone to extend my deer hunting a few days without having to drive 2½ hours to the family farm/hunting grounds.
Then there's the issue of bullets pulling out as the round is chambered from inertia. That increases as the bullet weight goes up due to more momentum. A good crimp can reduce or eliminate any pulling from repeatedly chambering and extracted the same round unfired. A condition that can happen when hunting, from unloading to climb into a stand, then reloading, repeatedly. In those circumstances, I remove all the rounds and move the top one to the bottom of the stack. That way, all of them get a few rides but not too many.
ive used that method of bullet rotation in my hunting guns for years now. GMTA
If you have a receiver with forward assist, what really helps is easing the round into the chamber ad thumbing the FA to make sure it's in battery. Something I do even when a round is chambered as I nervously watch a deer navigate into a shooting solution. Just force of habit. Some loose fitting bullets will pull with just one slam chamber cycle. That's where an effective crimp earns its keep. Much of this is common sense, but it is always good practice to see how your particular rig and reload behaves before you need it to go to bat for you.
this is a good reminder. i've been riding the bolt and using the FA to finalize chambering for about a year now. i never bothered in the past as my .308 was a slickside - no forward assist/dust cover - and before that my 30-06 was a more traditional rifle - albeit a pump - so i just slammed them home. its a whole lot quieter riding the bolt down and using the FA - which is more of why i started doing it. I crimp w/ a FCD (to varying degrees) all my rifle rounds that will go into anything other than a bolt gun to prevent both setback and inertial pulling.
I have several modified 45-70 Less FCDs that I've modified and if I'm loading critical reliability rounds, I use one of them. <snip> This caliber is just as lethal at 2200fps as 2350fps inside of 100 yds.
Hoot
many calibers are just as lethal at -150 FPS from max - or more. I run a 2050 FPS Hunting load in my blackout even though i know i can squeeze at least another 200 fps out of it. the same applies to my 204 accuracy/hunting load. i'm pretty sure that whatever i put a vmax through at 3700 FPS isnt going to know the difference of getting hit with that or a 4000 FPS version that produces groups >2x its size.
i guess what i'm saying is im not one of those reloaders who's only goal is "how fast can i make it shoot". as long as i can keep the bullet above its expansion velocity at the point of impact .... a slow accurate will kill way more effectively than a fast inaccurate bullet will any day.
450 BM will put me into the bakers dozen range of calibers i reload for - both bottle neck and straight walled cartridges. i've been adding calibers steadily over the last 6 years after starting to reload to make feeding my ar affordable. little did i konw at the time that not only could i shoot more for my $ that i could also makke really good ammo!
I have a fair selection of 4227, H110, Lil Gun and 1680 as well as D0-63 (a 1680 replacement powder by Lovex also being sold as Shooters World Blackout Powder). I see no reason why i wont be using lil gun for most of my 450 BM reloading, but have enough of 1680 & a pretty much unlimited local source for the D0-63 that i have on the shelf already if i really get into lobbing those 300 XTPs on a regular basis. I've had great results using the D0-63 in my blackout for subs and plan to test it on heavy supers this summer as well. I'm hearing results of >2000 FPS range with 150-155gr bullets is totally possible with 1680 & d0-63.
so for the final takeaway
The 450b craves more retentivity more than any other caliber I reload for, but more so when using lighter bullets. IMHO, you give up a degree of accuracy when you use the modified Lee 45-70 FCD die to perform a stab crimp, but it really helps in retaining bullets that are smooth sided. The taper crimp excels when pressed into a bullet's cannelure or in the case of all copper bullets, the grooves between the driving bands.
so generally speaking - while the taper crimp die that hornady provides will be usefull for many applications, you're suggesting that a lee FCD would be more functional for most - or at least more - (if not all) applications?
i'll be starting with the 250 FTX and then experimenting with the 300 XTP. i may mess with some other more economical options using the lighter stuff down the road - but as i've said - i have other calibers i can plink with. this is going to be primarily a single use upper - hunting. ok so i wont lie - i'll probably use it to see how big of holes i can put in random stuff too