Is Lil Gun propellant dirty or messy?

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Is Lil Gun propellant dirty or messy?

Postby earlwb » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:25 pm

I loaded up a batch of .450 Bushmaster rounds using Lil Gun propellant and it seems to be a very dirty propellant. Now this was a mild load using 33.9 grains of Lil Gun behind 230 grain hollow point .452" Hornady bullets (they were on sale at the time). I have been using both Winchester or Sellier and Bellot primers in Hornady cases.

But maybe 33.9 grains was a little too low though. Hard to tell going through my various sources for information. One source I used as a reference was here at http://www.450bm.com/ Now the reloading manuals all seem to use a little more propellant for the low end of the charge weight.

But after X number of rounds fired the cartridges would fail to chamber properly. So I had to run a bore brush down the chamber to clean it out of all the crud build up. Then it was good to go for X number of rounds fired again. Now I could fire something like 20 to 25 rounds and then have it fail to chamber properly and one time the first round fired that day did it too. By failing to chamber I mean the round appeared to load Ok, but it didn't go quite all the way in, and the firing pin would not hit the primer when the trigger is pulled.

It has me wondering if I did something wrong somewhere in the process. Or is the stuff just a messy propellant. The accuracy was pretty good though. At 50 yards getting groups under 1 inch wasn't a problem using the pistol bullets. Anyway some pics of the chamber dirty before cleaning it the last time. When too many particles of debris collects at the lip of the chamber it stops a cartridge from fully entering the chamber.

Anyway I thought I would see if anyone else had this issue or not.

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Re: Is Lil Gun propellant dirty or messy?

Postby plant_one » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:43 pm

to help you diagnose things we're going to need more load info, not just powder charge


what primer did you have the most problems with? or was it equal with both?
what OAL
are you crimping and with what method/tool?




generally speaking it looks like you're getting poor ignition, which could be lack of a crimp (you're using a .451 bullet instead of the .452 the caliber is designed around) or it could be the primers not igniting the powder well, but again with the limited data you give us - who the heck knows.






generaly speaking that load data there seems at best to be sketchy as hell - some of the loads do not list an OAL, none of them list a crimp (that i see), half of them dont tell you which primer, etc.... yikes! :o :o :shock:
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Re: Is Lil Gun propellant dirty or messy?

Postby Hoot » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:33 pm

Per QuickLoad, that's about a 70% +/- charge depending upon COL. That's really light. Doesn't predict to even make 2000fps. That'll dirty up a chamber real fast as it may not be sealing. Were the ejected cases sooted up? Even with my Rem 7 1/2 primers, I doubt that would be a good load, crimp notwithstanding. WSR primers are IMHO, the second best choice of primers after the Rem 7 1/2 in this caliber. I too am unfamiliar with S&B primers. With a weaker primer, pressure will definitely be too light. For the 230 XTP, I would start no less than 36gr of Lil Gun and that would be for a light handing, plinking load. You want to seat the XTP so that the cannelure is mostly below the mouth but still peeking over the mouth and drive that taper crimp down into the cannelure to yield a mouth diameter of .475. That'll get it cooking. Max Safe QL recommended load would be 41gr until you get some experience under your belt at reading the pressure signs. At that point, you can go further up in charge weight in .5gr steps by close scrutiny of the brass. WRT the standard 230gr XTP. They are more thin skinned than the 240gr XTP Mag version. Those will survive the best at the high velocities that the 450b kicks them out at up or beyond max load.

Regarding the cannelure. In some pictures of the Hornady 230gr XTP, they show a cannelure, but in other pictures, they show them smooth sided. I've never used them out of concern for the higher velocity that a 450b delivers versus a 45 ACP, which they were designed for, so I can't say which picture is right. If they're actually smooth sided, taper crimp the mouth down to .476 diameter.At higher velocity loads of them, if you have a chrony, do not shoot them over it until you determine that they don't come apart in flight. Last thing you need is to send a shard of jacket into the chrony. Just fair warning.

Good luck in working them up and welcome aboard Earl! Don't hesitate to ask questions. We were all newbies to the 450 at some time.

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Re: Is Lil Gun propellant dirty or messy?

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:41 pm

33.0 grains of LilGun won’t even seal the brass to the chamber wall. It doesn’t start doing that up until around 39.0 grains in my rifles. 41.5 grains gives a good seal and very low sooting in my rifles. Hoot is right. 33.0 for of Lil Gun isn’t a desirable starting point.
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Re: Is Lil Gun propellant dirty or messy?

Postby earlwb » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:21 pm

I thought I had a reply post, but it wasn't appearing.

Anyway I was using Hornady brass, 33.9 grains of Lil Gun, 230 grain XTP HP Hornady bullets, .451" diameter, OAL was 2.10". Winchester or S&B small rifle primers. Both primers seemed to have the same effect and it did it with both types.

The crimping is a little weak, I did use a Lee Factory crimp die. I had made up a few dummy rounds to use for testing when I was fixing my magazines up to work. The magazines didn't work at first. But while testing I had noticed the bullets creeping out as I repeatedly used them to test the magazines. So that resulted in more aggressive crimping of course. But although it alleviated the problem of the bullets creeping, it could still happen some after repeated use in testing.

I was originally going for a light load with the idea of not causing the bullets to come apart at speed. In looking at the targets the bullets are all making nice clean round holes without any shrapnel happening too. The rifle does cycle OK with the mild loads though. It will fire three rounds Ok out of both magazines no problem now after I fixed the magazines of course. Granted it does the same with the factory loaded 250 grain rounds too.

Anyway so far I agree with you guys. The propellant charge is too light. The crimp likely is not good enough either. It is possible the primers may not be all that strong for ignition too. But the primers work fine in my .308 Win, .300 BLK, .22 TCM and 223 Rem.

I do appreciate your input too. Thanks guys.
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Re: Is Lil Gun propellant dirty or messy?

Postby Bmt85 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:06 am

What upper or barrel are you running? Kind of surprised you didn’t have hang fires at that point.

I have a Bushmaster factory upper and a Tromix barrel. The Bushmaster upper has slight hang fires and usually doesn’t seal until 39gr of Lilgun (like Tex), 40gr seals all the time. My Tromix however, I can go down to 36gr with no hangfires and will usually seal new brass, but not always. 38gr have no issues in the Tromix. That’s with Nosler 230 fp, Sierra fmj, and Hornady fmj. When I go with minimum charges that have no hangfires and the cases seal, Lilgun’s pretty clean. When I start leaning on it, it’s even cleaner.

As far as primers, I have come across quite a few people who have issues with S&B’s being too soft. Now with the pressures 450B runs at there shouldn’t be an issue. They may flatten a little bit sooner, but you shouldn’t have an issue. Just giving you a heads up. WSR’s should be good to go.
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Re: Is Lil Gun propellant dirty or messy?

Postby earlwb » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:50 am

I am using a standard Bushmaster brand upper with 20 inch barrel.

Yeah I noticed that the S&B primers tend to show pressure signs earlier than some other brands. That was when using their pistol primers in the .22 TCM.
Last edited by earlwb on Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Lil Gun propellant dirty or messy?

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:50 am

With the 230 Grain FMJs at 38.0-38.5 grains of LilGun and a standard taper crimp, I was having hang fires. And sooting was pretty significant. After further testing, there seemed to be a relationship between these low powder loads and the light primer strikes of my Timney Trigger (3#). Replaced the timney with a Stoned and Honed MilSpec hammer trigger group and switched to a JP yellow spring kit, upped the load to 39.0 grains of LilGun, deployed the LeGendre Side crimp and the improvement was significant.
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Re: Is Lil Gun propellant dirty or messy?

Postby earlwb » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:54 am

You know, I was noticing that the primer strikes do seem a bit on the light side or weak with my rifle. But I am using a plain jane trigger group. I might need to study that more too.
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Re: Is Lil Gun propellant dirty or messy?

Postby Hoot » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:17 am

earlwb wrote:I thought I had a reply post, but it wasn't appearing.

Anyway I was using Hornady brass, 33.9 grains of Lil Gun, 230 grain XTP HP Hornady bullets, .451" diameter, OAL was 2.10". Winchester or S&B small rifle primers. Both primers seemed to have the same effect and it did it with both types.

The crimping is a little weak, I did use a Lee Factory crimp die. I had made up a few dummy rounds to use for testing when I was fixing my magazines up to work. The magazines didn't work at first. But while testing I had noticed the bullets creeping out as I repeatedly used them to test the magazines. So that resulted in more aggressive crimping of course. But although it alleviated the problem of the bullets creeping, it could still happen some after repeated use in testing.

I was originally going for a light load with the idea of not causing the bullets to come apart at speed. In looking at the targets the bullets are all making nice clean round holes without any shrapnel happening too. The rifle does cycle OK with the mild loads though. It will fire three rounds Ok out of both magazines no problem now after I fixed the magazines of course. Granted it does the same with the factory loaded 250 grain rounds too.

Anyway so far I agree with you guys. The propellant charge is too light. The crimp likely is not good enough either. It is possible the primers may not be all that strong for ignition too. But the primers work fine in my .308 Win, .300 BLK, .22 TCM and 223 Rem.

I do appreciate your input too. Thanks guys.


Earl, this is a mostly humble forum. The members who choose to reply to posts, do so because they feel compelled to help, not brag or elevate themselves by belittling others. That cannot be said of all forums. There's probably no bullet, powder or load that you can think of for this caliber, that someone here hasn't already tried. You can benefit from those experiences.

You can't compare reloading this caliber to other bottleneck rifle calibers. I learned that lesson well, shortly after I got mine back in 2010. Back then, there was a lot less accumulated experience so it was a longer learning curve. For me, that was actually fun because there was plenty of unexplored paths to take.

Lets break down your loads starting with the bullet. There are two kinds of bullet profiles that we use. Smooth sided and cannelured or in the case of Barnes, ones with driving band grooves. As you would expect, a smooth surface is harder to hold onto than one with surface irregularities. By choosing the XTP as opposed to the XTP Mag version of Hornady's hollow points, you wound up with smooth sided. Never mind that they are less sturdy. Its not like you're going to see a puff of grey and no impact downrange. This isn't a 3k+ fps caliber. Regardless of whether its a hollow point, round nose fmj or some form of ballistic tip. Hanging onto a smooth walled cup and core bullet is going to be a challenge in this caliber. The XTP Mag versions of bullets are like night and day in terms of ease of hanging onto them since they have a cannelure. All bullets pull as a result of inertia, otherwise inertial bullet pullers wouldn't work. Its discussed ad infinitum here that you don't repeatedly load and unload a cartridge in this caliber without checking them for pulling. Doubly so with the smooth sided bullets. Its the main reason that I shy away from the 230fmj bullets, despite them being affordable and plentiful. If someone made that bullet with a cannelure, I'd be all over it. That's why I like the 225gr FTX for plinking. Its easy to impart a crimp down into that cannelure, that hangs on to them. nuff said...

Your choice of powder is spot on. nuff said...

As I said earlier, the Winchester Small Rifle primer is a good choice. nuff said...

Crimping is as much art as it is science in this caliber, especially with short bullets that don't seat more than a half caliber. Look at your bottle neck calibers. How would that .308 do in an autoloader if you only seated a smooth sided bullet .154 down into the neck? It was wise that you chose to over-crimp your dummy rounds that you were using to work out your magazine tuning. You can now buy magazines that do not need tuning, but they're not nearly as cheap as the ones that do. Back when it was first introduced, all 450b mags needed some fussing with to get them to perform reliably. You couldn't buy your way out of it. That tuning process is also well documented within this forum. I own a Lee FCD for just about every caliber that I reload for. The way they are implemented in those cases is not the way we need it to work on the 450b. We need an FCD that works on the entire surface area of the bullet, not just .10-.15 down from the mouth. I hope their new 450b FCD die accomplishes that without compromising the fact that this caliber headspaces on the mouth. That is why a taper crimp die is fairly effective in this caliber. Personally, I like the one that Hornady provided, but it is not as effective with short, smooth sided bullets. To effectively predict how your crimp will perform and for the sake of repeatability, you need a a micrometer or tightly spec'd caliper to measure with. You see us refer to diameter ranges from .474 to.478 at the mouth. I close my jaws on the .451-.452 bullet and push the mouth up to where it does not pass through them. I then painfully, slowly open the jaws until the case mouth lips just eases past the jaw lips (One of the reasons that your cases need to be deburred). I do not just close the jaws down upon the case, near the mouth. The cases get thicker the further back from the mouth you measure. Whatever method you use is fine as long as you use it that way for every reloading session. The fact that not all members agree upon how to measure their crimps requires you to read between the lines when trying to duplicate their load recipes. At least you know how I do mine now. A crimp not only needs to be effective, it also has to be repeatable if you want to keep your velocity SD as low as possible. nuff said...

OAL / COL. If you already have a Stoney Point (now Hornady) Overall Length Gauge, consider getting a 450b case for it. It's great for many reasons but also for seeing what OAL/COL you need to use to get the bullet in to at least a half caliber (personal minimum) seating depth before you're actually loading rounds. The bullets need to start off straight WRT the case centerline before ignition forces them into the leade if you have any hopes of good groups. After over 2500 450b loads, unlike many bottle neck calibers I also load for, I have yet to realize a benefit from seating the bullets in to where they touch the rifling. Just assume you need a jump in this caliber. Resistance is futile. As long as they strip and chamber, there is no minimum OAL/COL.

Best advice: Get a different bullet to learn reloading for this caliber. One with a cannelure to drive the taper crimp down into. The XTP Mags have them is you like a hollow point. The 200 and 225 FTX have them also. My experience has been that the Hornady 225 FTX is an easy peezy bullet to load with great results using Lil Gun and either a Rem 7 1/2 or WSR primer. On their worst day, they are no more than 2 MOA 5-shot groups at 100 yds and at the optimum load, they can reliably achieve .75 MOA 5-shot groups at 100yds off of a good bench setup. Not to mention, they are affordable and doubly so if you catch on a Midway blemished sale. The last boxes of blems I got were something like 15¢ a bullet. When members spot a good deal, they are generally good about posting it here after they place their order ;)

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