Range Report: Barnes XPB Part II

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Range Report: Barnes XPB Part II

Postby Hoot » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:34 pm

Note from Hoot: I have finally repaired the broken image links due to changing ISP a few years ago.

Range report Saturday & Sunday July 9th/10th

Jogging Shorts and Tee shirts ruled the day as temps started at 80 and went up from there, along with the kind of humidity that makes a postage stamp curl up in record time. Forget muffs, it was plugs only. Anything to help with making the outing more humane. At least there was a breeze Saturday. Actually too much as it became downright blustery as storms, generated by the conditions, marched in. Groups suffered a little from sudden bursts of crosswind. Sunday brought even higher temps and sultry conditions as it was still as a tomb. Saturday's winds looked like a godsend in hindsight. Both outings took probably twice as long due to the barrel taking what seemed like forever to cool down every few shots.

I did another water shot per BD1's interest. I loaded down a round to simulate the velocity the 200 grain XPB that exited the barrel at 2400 fps would be going at 300 yards, despite not considering this caliber a 300 yard caliber. I had just enough milk jugs for one shot until I make another foraging run on recyclable day. So, my rationale was if it expands at 300 yard, it will do fine at 200 and 100. Well it didn't.. I have never had a shot from this caliber go through more than 5 jugs of 7. At 1175 fps, the bullet bored through all 7 jugs with only the first two showing trauma and the rest having a caliber sized hole drilled through them. So, no porn today. The bullet disappeared downrange after exiting the last jug. IMHO, the Barnes 200gr XPB is not an acceptable 300 yard bullet. Once I gather some more milk jugs, I will load one to 200 yard velocity (1500 fps) and try again. This should not come as a surprise, given the bullet is intended for the .460 S&W, with MV's around 2000-2300 fps. OK, I got that out of the way.

I continued where I left off with the last outing on the 5th, backtracking a few loads and adding more taper crimp to see what velocity increase it would provide and also reduction on velocity spread. Forget applying OBT theory to this bullet, in this caliber, with this powder. If it's indeed there, I could not find it. These babies love speed. The more the merrier. The 275's SD and velocity were less affected by neck tension, which comes as no surprise since the additional weight requires a lot more energy to get moving. In the case of the 200 it needs the neck tension more to hold it back (like a heavier bullet) before it releases from the case. Though I haven't gotten to the Alliant 2400 tests with the 200 yet, in the case of faster 2400 powder, neck tension is not as critical.

On Sunday's outing, after a few shots, I was troubleshooting my equipment, scratching my head, wondering about the effect of the hot weather, etc, due to the fact that I went down in velocity, despite having gone up in charge weight. I eventually continued on, finished my work and went home. While transferring my data, I remembered that I had exhausted my old bottle of Lil Gun and switched to a bottle I recently got. Wow, talk about giving credence to the tenet that powder can vary from lot to lot! :shock: So, you will see in my results a backtracking of velocities. There is something to be said for buying those 8lb kegs after all.

So, continuing on where I left off on the 5th, here is the data for Saturday and Sunday merged together:

Image

That led to the following groups at 100 yards for the 200 grain XPBs:

Image

And for the 275 grain bullets, which really shined:

Image

For the 275gr, the best 3-shot group goes to 40gr of Lil Gun with almost a single hole! It was hard keeping track with the 275s as there was hardly a group that didn't have some redeeming aspect to it.

Today (Friday) was recycling day for the section-8 housing next door to where I work and I made a haul on milk jugs. So some more water shots are coming for both the 200s and 275s. Also coming are 200gr XPB loads using Alliant 2400 and seeing how far safety allows me to go further upward with both bullet weights and Lil Gun. As I said in my last thread, these bullets perform marvelously, as they should at that price. You can load up a box for hunting using some of my work, but keep in mind, you will get different results with the shorty and not to let the opportunity get by to reiterate this, from variances in powder energy content from lot to lot. The brass is holding up like yeomen, with no pressure signs knock on wood. I look forward to being able to close out the Barnes' in part 3. I will be taking a handful of these deer hunting this fall. Hopefully, my Dad will show some restraint this time and allow me to actually take a deer or two on my tags. ;)

I can't say this enough, but a big thanks is in order to commander faschisto for his help doing these experiments.

Respectfully submitted,

Hoot
Last edited by Hoot on Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Range Report: Barnes XPB Part II

Postby BD1 » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:04 pm

Good work Hoot, and thanks for taking the slow shot for me. As I'm pretty confident in the 250 FTX to 300 yards, your slow shot has given me an excuse not to play around with any $2.00 a piece bullets :). Lot to lot variation is always an issue with any powder. If you find something you think you're going to use over time, buy an 8 Lb jug or two. I'm glad I bought some of the powder I use when I did. I think the days of $4/lb surplus powders are behind us.
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Re: Range Report: Barnes XPB Part II

Postby wildcatter » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:02 pm

Hoot,

I might disagree, but only a little, at your 300yd assertion and 7 jugs. Consider, a 45cal bullet, without expansion, is larger than a 30cal or even a 338cal gets after expansion. So, if you have the penetration, why wouldn't the 45cal 200gr xpb do the job, as only any 30cal magnum wish it could, at 300yds??

For you new Reloaders, we are about to discuss pressures, outside of SAMMI Specs. This is a dangerous practice and must not be done by armatures and even by some professionals.

Talk about lot to lot differences!

Today I shot a ton of the 200gr Barnes in testing, and our results are far different. With 45grs of lilgun you are reporting 2500+- fps, in a 20" barrel. I used 45grs as my starting load and my results were at 2700fps+-, go figure. FYI, my pressure equipment reports 45grs, as having 40k-psi +-, with a case head expansion of .0005" average.

I ended up at 50K psi +-, using 296, with .0015" case head expansion, with very slight flatting of the primers and barely visible, if you got the light just right, swipes. But, the speeds rose to 3000fps, in my 20" barreled 450b! And here's the kicker, on my 200yd range they were under 1/2 MOA!!

I kinda like this little bullet and soon will set up a raking shot on a deer at 200yds, to asses the Terminal results. For me anyways, your 7 jug test tells me this is a good idea, any opinions?..

..t

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Re: Range Report: Barnes XPB Part II

Postby commander faschisto » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:04 pm

Excellent work once again, Hoot-mon! The 200s just seem like an ideal whitetail and smaller-critter round in 450b. Looks like the 270s are going to put up some nice groups when you can get back to them, too. Thanks for the info. :)

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Re: Range Report: Barnes XPB Part II

Postby Hoot » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:11 pm

Well gee Tim, how about inkling what else you're up to so I don't waste time and money duplicating your efforts. I'm betting your Range Report will eclipse mine. Looking at my factory 450b, I would never have guessed it would withstand that Barnes 200 going out the end at 3000 fps and even less the Hornady factory brass standing up to it. I guess I underestimated Bushmaster's and Hornady's ruggedness. I honestly would not have expected that chrome lined chamber to hang on to the brass under that kind of strain, such that it would not be driven more into the bolt face than you experienced. Guess I overestimated the slipperiness of that chrome. Maybe I need to dust off that Lee FCD die and consider pursuing greater neck tension because I'm obviously not getting all the power out of Lil Gun that it is capable of delivering. I've done that before, but the sacrifice for the greater power as a result of a deep, narrow stab crimp was less accuracy and I could not get 1 inch groups at 100 yards with that degree of crimping, let alone 1 inch at 200 yards like you do. Lastly, it looks like I need to dump my 24x scope, BR1000 front rest and rear bag, because they're obviously holding me back.

Why not shoot a raking shot at 300 yards as that would allow a direct analog to the water jug penetration test. Even though we use water jugs due to their ease of access, it would be enlightening to see how they correlate to the real McCoy.

Do you crimp on the front or rear cannelure on those 200s? What COL do you seat them to?

What's really indicative of how wrong I've been with my loading procedure is that QuickLoad, with all it's parameters for that load being left to default, typically predicts my 450b loads to be around 150 fps faster than what I actually achieve for a given powder charge. In the case of your 45gr load, it predicts exactly what you got. I've had to use Chris Long's recommended parameter tweaks to get QL to predict the same velocities I got, which I hate doing because once you start modifying formulas to match your results, you're standing on a slippery slope.

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Re: Range Report: Barnes XPB Part II

Postby BD1 » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:06 am

A couple of thoughts on Quickload predictions.

1. Cartridge over all length has a big influence on pressure and velocity in straight wall cases. When looking at different results by two different reloaders, COAL needs to be considered

2. I believe somewhere between 35,000 psi and 40,000 psi we cross a line at which point you need to be using the case capacity in grains of water of a case fired in your chamber, rather than the default value which I believe uses the averaged capacity of a new case.

3. Actual pressure/velocity data trumps QL predictions every time. It's not like we're adjusting the model to meet our expectations, we're adjusting it to meet reality. This is an adjustment I've found necessary for the .450B model, I believe this is due to the very slim basis of the model for this cartridge.

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Re: Range Report: Barnes XPB Part II

Postby wildcatter » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:04 pm

Hoot wrote:Well gee Tim, how about inkling what else you're up to so I don't waste time and money duplicating your efforts. I'm betting your Range Report will eclipse mine. Looking at my factory 450b, I would never have guessed it would withstand that Barnes 200 going out the end at 3000 fps and even less the Hornady factory brass standing up to it. I guess I underestimated Bushmaster's and Hornady's ruggedness. I honestly would not have expected that chrome lined chamber to hang on to the brass under that kind of strain, such that it would not be driven more into the bolt face than you experienced. Guess I overestimated the slipperiness of that chrome. Maybe I need to dust off that Lee FCD die and consider pursuing greater neck tension because I'm obviously not getting all the power out of Lil Gun that it is capable of delivering. I've done that before, but the sacrifice for the greater power as a result of a deep, narrow stab crimp was less accuracy and I could not get 1 inch groups at 100 yards with that degree of crimping, let alone 1 inch at 200 yards like you do. Lastly, it looks like I need to dump my 24x scope, BR1000 front rest and rear bag, because they're obviously holding me back.

Why not shoot a raking shot at 300 yards as that would allow a direct analog to the water jug penetration test. Even though we use water jugs due to their ease of access, it would be enlightening to see how they correlate to the real McCoy.

Do you crimp on the front or rear cannelure on those 200s? What COL do you seat them to?

What's really indicative of how wrong I've been with my loading procedure is that QuickLoad, with all it's parameters for that load being left to default, typically predicts my 450b loads to be around 150 fps faster than what I actually achieve for a given powder charge. In the case of your 45gr load, it predicts exactly what you got. I've had to use Chris Long's recommended parameter tweaks to get QL to predict the same velocities I got, which I hate doing because once you start modifying formulas to match your results, you're standing on a slippery slope.

Hoot


Between you and BD, we might figure out this QL thing. As it is is helps me allot in predicting, starting loads. I sacrifice a brass, drilling a 1/4" hole through the primer pocket (many of you know all this stuff, I'm writing for the uninitiated now), seat a bullet to your chosen OAL, crimp, now you're ready to fill the case with powder through your new hole, in the back end. This is an effort in knowing what's the most powder you can put into that cartridge combo, not that, that amount is a safe load, but that number becomes the top end for the combination you are using, or the, can't exceed amount. Using BD's QL idea, this is also a good method to find out the case capacity in water.

Keep in mind that my 3000fps load isn't going to function your weapon, the gas port just isn't in the right location. We've built a jig to do this and will soon, be offering a conversion, that will allow the experienced reloader/experimenter, the ability to actually ring out this cartridges capabilities. Which in the example of this Barnes Bullet were disusing (200xpb #45115), does smokes the shorts of the 338wm energy numbers, using factory 338wm 250gr loads with a 20" barrel on the 338 and this is but one example of what can actually be done, when gun, ammunition, and more importantly, if the reloader is also up to the task. I've already seen other loads that exceed the 458wm, BUT, I have not determined if they are safe for me and everything I load is well above SAMMI and is considered UNSAFE!!

I'd set up a 300yd raking shot but my range is only 200yds long and I have an Apple tree at the 175yd line. We have to cease-fire all the time to allow the deer to pass, they are in no-way bothered by the shooting. I've put supersonic rounds ten feet behind them, to get them clear, so we can resume our activities, only to have them pick their head up and then resume eating, I think I may have even seen one mouth an obscenity, go figure. So, you've given me an idea to slow down a bullet, to duplicate 300yd range performance, setting up that shot should be pretty easy. Given your jug test I think it'll be something to explore.

FYI, I've been seeing something lately, wherein, early on I will see pressure signs and I have been able to continue working up the load and they go away. I think they are sealing better at that point. The Side Crimp helps allot in getting things cooking and I really don't see pressure signs until I get into the 50k-psi area and then only minor swiping. Of course I don't mind 1.5thou case head expansion, others will condemn this as a safety violation and they'd be right.

Speaking of my side crimp, generally speaking, I does degrade accuracy some, but there are loads wherein they increase accuracy, just not often..

..t
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Re: Range Report: Barnes XPB Part II

Postby Hoot » Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:54 pm

Tim, what seating depth did you use on the 200 XPBs and 45gr of Lil Gun that you got to shoot at 2700 fps? Also did you crimp the front, rear or both cannelures? Ditto on the W296 load that shots .5 MOA at 200 yards? That information would be a benefit to all of us loyal followers here. Sharing is caring.

WRT COL, Bob is absolutely correct. I've put an inordinate amount of work into my .300 WSSM AR15, including doing the c-bass16 magazine mod to allow me to seat up to 2.40 COL and get the bullets closer to the lands in the barrel. When I do a range experiment that I want to share with others, I have to do it twice. Once at 2.40 COL and again at 2.26 for the majority of readers who choose not to do that mod. That little .14 difference changed the load from 2932 fps @ 63.6K PSI (top of the safe zone) to 3000 fps and 71.5K (into the Tim zone). I always post my COL in my range report. That's just the responsible thing to do.

Hoot

I suspect the author of QL likes to sleep at night, despite users of his software not reading all the warnings, so his algorithms intentionally err on the side of caution. None, repeat none of my loads that I use in 12 different calibers I've checked so far, ever yielded as high a pressure or as fast a velocity as QL predicts for them. That's not just bad luck. We live in a society where some individuals choose to pursue a dangerous lifestyle and when it catches up with them, the first thing they do is "lawyer up". :roll:

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Re: Range Report: Barnes XPB Part II

Postby wildcatter » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:05 pm

Well Hoot my man,

I was in a big yank to get out of the house, when I first wrote today, as I had folks here that wanted to go boating, so I forgot to address your OAL question and remembered it on the boat. So, I just got in and wanted to take a minute and address that.

I was measuring my mags and found that the standard for the 5.56 oal is 2.260. I'm betting that was what the Army wanted, which was clearance for the cartridges to keep functioning in the mag, when they got full of crud. So, for all these years I've used a 2.25 number for even more clearance, not realizing that the mags could have a much greater ID clearance. Hey, I get stuck in paradigms too..

So, there I was yesterday, up in the air 30+ feet, at my bench, in the lab, looking at where I would have to crimp our bullet (the Barnes 200gr xpb #451115, with two crimp groves, one in the more normal forward position and one near the back). The question in my mind was,.."if I crimp the forward one, it'd be putting the bullet well into the case, taking up precious powder space and have an oal in the 2.1 area" (not sure what the length would be, just shorter than I like).. If I crimped into the rearward one the powder capacity would come up, but the oal wouldn't work in the mag, right? I really wanted to crimp into the rear one, with a LSC (LeGendre Side Crimp), thinking that, that grove is just so deep the LCS would hold it fabulously, even though not much of the bullet would be down in the case. So, I made a sacrificial case (drilling out the primer pocket), seated the bullet so I could do a LCS into the bottom crimp grove, after loading the powder through the new primer pocket, I did my tapping thing to the side of the case, to settle the powder so I could put in more powder and weighed up four different powders, doing all this to determined the max capacity for the given powder at hand (this number is almost always a dangerous load and only represents a number to never exceed). I really wasn't thinking of shooting this right then, but futuristic data can be very important. But I did stuff this dummy round in a CProducts Magazine and guess what? I was looking for the cartridge to get stuck into the mag, between the front and back, because it's OAL, was something like 2.370" (don't quote me on this because I don't want to walk out to the lab to review my notes, it's 12a here), but it fit with allot of extra room left over. So, dumb-founded I measured the inside of the mag and it was something like 2.414" long, on the inside??-!!!

I've been wasting powder space for along time, Dang!!

So, to finally answer the question, I'm using a LCS into the bottom crimp grove, after first putting on a taper crimp, on this Barnes Bullet. They are very stable, laterally speaking. After the guys went home, I even loaded several cartridges, loaded my way (taper crimp, followed by a LSCrimp) and threw them down the stairs, which has about 25 or so steps and two landings. I dial indicated them before and after and guess what, no run-out, heck these things are a-ok, for me anyways, with only about .160" of bullet down into the case. Now, this little seating depth, into the case, will not generally work for just any bullet and the general rule-of-thumb is, a full caliber of depth. But these solids, with a very strategically placed groove, where it is, with two types of crimps, set at a far different oal than my normal, are just going to work, and work well for me.

"DON'T", any of you other guys, do any of this, for this information, is for informational and entertainment purposes only. I say entertainment, as in, .."Hey hold my Beer and watch me blow myself up", Get It??

Now, I've got to reassess my OAL's.

Hope this helps Hoot and I'm sorry if you think you did some unnecessary work, but the truth is, you come at things far differently than I do and your work is so good, I too defer to your data. So, don't think for a minute you did anything in vain. Holy Cow Man, we need your expertise!

How's about you guys posting your inside mag measurements and state which brand of mag it is..

..t

PS... Notice the loaded round in my pic, the ojive is all inked-up. I was looking for the lands and grooves to be hitting the bullet, but it wasn't at all..t
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Re: Range Report: Barnes XPB Part II

Postby Hoot » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:18 pm

Tim et al

I've been seating the 200 XPB to 2.175-2.18 inches to place the forward cannelure just inside the mouth so the taper crimp would drive the mouth into that groove a little. If I were going to use a Stab Crimp, Lee FCD, LSC, whatever you want to call it and I wanted to use the forward cannelure, I would would seat it even a little further so the stab crimp was not right at the mouth. Something like .1 inch below the mouth. As Tim alluded to, that would put the COL somewhere in the vicinity of 2.1 inches and also take away valuable case capacity with powders that use up the entire case and could put that extra room to better use. Tim said what I wanted to hear. Namely seat the bullet out as far as it can go without dragging on the mag or upper, while not so far out as to place too little bullet in the case, even with a stab crimp. You're just asking to stab crimp a mis-aligned bullet into place. I have played with just about every brand of magazine and historically, the C-Products afford the greatest room. However, I suspect Tim's notes will bear out that no AR15 magazine will afford us the luxury of 2.37. The most I've seen with a case not modified per c_bass16's mod, to be around 2.30, maybe 2.31 if the factory was a little loose on their tolerances. More often, the mags afford about 2.29-2.30 maximum COL without the bullet tips dragging. This is a Win-Win situation as not only do you get more powder capacity, but less case pressure as there's more room for the gas and IMHO, the most important aspect and that is getting the ogive as close to the lands as possible. That's a big factor in accuracy. For example, when I load a bullet with no cannelure, so there is not reason to seat it short in order to catch the cannelure, I load mine to 2.29. An example of this is the stock Hornady 250gr FTX with its smooth sides. Now that I know that Tim has had success using the rear cannelure instead of the front or both, I will load my next run with the Barnes XPB bullets out at 2.29, lay on a .475 taper crimp and hit that rear cannelure with stab crimp. That is not necessarily a panacea as last year, I did a series of tests where I took my most successful load in terms of accuracy, using the affordable 225gr FTX and loaded them every way possible:
Taper crimp using the forward cannelure just buried at the mouth ~2.15 COL
Taper crimp and catching the forward cannelure with a stab crimp ~2.10 COL
Taper Crimp and catching only the rear cannelure, but still seated rather deeply 2.10 COL
Taper crimp and catching both cannelures, but still seated rather deeply 2.10 COL

Some combinations tightened up the SDs quite a bit and resulted in slightly more velocity, but in all the variations, accuracy suffered when compared to my gold standard of what I said earlier. Bury the front cannelure just into the mouth and taper crimp to .475, ahead of 38gr of Lil Gun at a total COL around 2.15. That load only yields a velocity of ~2300 fps, but the FTX bullets are designed to expands at an even lower velocity, so no big deal. It is also very easy on the cases, ensuring a long life of reloading.

I have never tried the Taper Crimp and hitting just the rear with it seated further out, say 2.29, though in the case of the 225gr FTX, that only leaves .215 insertion depth on the bullet and probably not a good idea. That doesn't mean some longer length cant be found that would allow at least a half caliber of insertion, though I prefer more. I'm past my bed time as we just got home from a local fireworks display and tomorrow is the club's annual pig roast. I will give this all a try and report in at the next opportunity I have for a range day. In the case of the 200 gr XPB, we may be able to find a happy compromise between all those factors. No trouble accomplishing that with the 275s though due to their greater length.

Thanks for sharing your data Tim.

Hoot
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