225 FTX - Going the other way too

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225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby Hoot » Fri May 21, 2010 9:51 pm

Note from Hoot: I finally got around to fixing the broken image links I posted in this thread due to changing ISP a few years ago

The more I work with the 225 gr FTX, the more I'm liking it over the 200 and 250. While the 250 is the anointed one for the 450b, it is far from the only logical choice. In recent expansion tests using water filler milk jugs, the 225 expanded in best form of the three. Being more stubby at the tip than the sleeker 200 and 250gr bullets turns out not to be a detriment. It puts that stubbiness to good use. When I first sliced it open and noted the thinner jacket, I thought for sure it would blow up or at least over blossom at modest speeds, but it doesn't. While it starts expanding quickly, when it reaches just the right point, it seems to stop and hold its form. Today, I had an opportunity to shoot it through several increments of powder loading and discovered it is quite accurate at 100 yards. It now holds the record for my best 450b 3-shot 4-shot and 5-shot groups. Now I'm sure part of that is me getting used to shooting an AR effectively, but I'm serious when I say it has great potential.

Unfortunately, I discovered a perplexing problem. I'll let you see if you can figure out the problem I saw in my results in this table:

Image

Answer: The velocities both vary widely within a given powder increment and as a whole and they don't go up much with each increasing amount of powder.

Suspecting insufficient neck tension, I loaded up another set and added a pass through the Lee FCD die for each and returned to the range the next day with almost identical results. The velocities tightened up a little, but my gut feeling on this is that Lil Gun is too slow for the 225gr FTX bullet. I will once again some up, but with Alliant 2400, which I used with the 200gr FTX and return to the range yet again tomorrow. At least I'm getting valuable trigger time for my trouble. Again, I am quite surprised that with the velocity variations, the groups were quite satisfying. The 38 gr load put all 5 in the 1 inch bull at 100 yds. I got pictures galore, but looking at pictures of other people's groups is like looking at their vacation pictures.Image...yawn
If anyone wants to see some, I can put some up.

I will continue this saga after my range visit tomorrow using 2400.

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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby gunnut » Fri May 21, 2010 10:52 pm

Your loads might be a little light. During the muzzel brake tests we used factory ammo.
During the set up and sight in and play we used my reloads. 43.5grs. Lil Gun, factory brass, Pmc magnum primers topped off with a Zero 230gr. FMJ. With a heavy side crimp. W.C. checked each one. NO signs of over pressure. primers,head expansion,ejector or extractor. Bushmiesters gun was spitting them out about 2o'clock. Factory ammo had sooting down the sides. I hope Bushmiester will chim in on the accuracy! I was busy with the brake tests and set ups. We did manage to hit several 2 liter bottles of water at 100yrds. with my reloads. Devastating! Ripes them apart! They are hotter then factory! May have to fine tune for accuracy. But, We will see what that looks like when I hit 45grs.
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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby Hoot » Sat May 22, 2010 6:03 am

This is where my lack of experience with reloading for the 450b starts to show. Since I was averaging 2248 fps pushing the 250gr FTX with 37 gr of Lil Gun, I expected to get at least that velocity using 37 gr of Lil Gun with a lighter bullet. Since my loadings using the 225 FTX pushed by 37 and 38 gr of Lil Gun produced the same velocity as with the 250 FTX in two separate trials and barely faster with than that with 39 gr, I assumed that Lil Gun might not be reaching peak pressure before the bullet is exiting the bore, IE too slow. If you look at my results in the "200 FTX going the other way" thread, you'll see that 2400 yielded nice, tight velocity SDs and notable increases in velocity with each powder grain increment. So, my natural inclination will be to try the 2400 with the 225 FTX. My new batch with 2400 is ready to go to the range in an hour and a half, but just to be objective, I'll try a few of the Lil Gun loadings a third time, but with a double Lee FCD crimp.

FWIW, like the 200 FTX experiments, sooting down one side was also present on the 225s, but a more thick layer than when using 2400 powder. The sooting with 2400 was more like a vapor deposit. With the Lil Gun, it was more like it was painted on, for lack of a better descriptor.

I'll report my results later this afternoon/evening.

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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby Siringo » Sat May 22, 2010 5:50 pm

Do you have any WSR primers? In the 250 loads with LG, I found that CCI SR's were 100 fps slower than the WSR's. For me the WSR is the go to primer, just like LG. Trouble is, the WSR's are hard to find.
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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby Hoot » Sat May 22, 2010 8:29 pm

Siringo wrote:Do you have any WSR primers? In the 250 loads with LG, I found that CCI SR's were 100 fps slower than the WSR's. For me the WSR is the go to primer, just like LG. Trouble is, the WSR's are hard to find.


Actually, the 250s ahead of 37 gr Lil Gun ran 2250 average over my chrony at 55F, but then it is the 20 inch barrel not the 16. You're right in that I can't remember the last time I saw WSRs at any store that carries reloading supplies around these parts. They can be had on gunbroker.com for a price. from time to time. Some day, I'll understand why Hornady chose SRPs over LRPs since the design concept was based on LRPs.

Unfortunately, I awoke this morning to thunderstorms ahead of this warm front coming in and when they finally cleared out this afternoon, winds were gusting to 35 MPH so I never got to the range. [i]Many a plans of Mice and Hoot...[i] It's supposed to lay down by tomorrow morning, so when the range shooting begins at noon, I'll already be set up and rearing to go. It's nice to live 10 minutes from a private sports club, that you just so happen to be the Rifle Range Coordinator for. The 450b is great for keeping the shooting position on either side of you open on busy Sundays. ;)

I'll report the results of the Lee FCD double crimp upon overall velocity as well as SD. I'd like to stay with Lil Gun as the recoil it produces is more pleasant than the 2400. As I said before, pushing the 250 FTX with LG generates less perceived recoil (to me) than a 200 FTX at the same velocity ahead of Alliant 2400. Maybe that's not a good thing after all. I swear, fate keeps pushing me in the direction of .284 cases and a ream.

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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby Siringo » Sat May 22, 2010 9:41 pm

Hoot -- My velocities for the 37 gr charge and the 250 are the same as yours -- but with a 16 inch barrel. I am darn near out of WSR's -- I travel a lot and stop by all the gun shops I can looking for them. Only thing I heard is Winchester has a huge gov't contract that will tie them up until next year.

I had posted somewhere on this site my primer tests.
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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby Siringo » Sat May 22, 2010 9:46 pm

Hoot -- in the 450 reloading portion is a thread "primers". Think it is 2nd page. I was using 300's and had quite a bit of velocity difference.
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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby Hoot » Sun May 23, 2010 7:16 am

Wow, this would negate all my loads I worked up and all my observations about performance. I will stop all work until I can get the proper primers. A cartridge so dependent upon a single brand of primer is either poorly designed or smartly marketed, depending upon who's stock shares you own. This is a fine Sunday morning revelation. :|

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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby Siringo » Sun May 23, 2010 7:56 am

Note that Remington's load also uses a SR primer. Would like to get one of their rounds and pull apart to check the powder type. Remington will certainly be using their own 71/2, not Winchester. I have a box of 30 Remington AR and those are also SR primers and the powder is a fine grained stick, not ball.

Normally one would not notice the velocity difference -- until they bought a chrono --
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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby BD1 » Sun May 23, 2010 9:44 am

The 250 grain FTXs over 37 grains of LilGun are running 2200 out of my 16" barrel using Rem 7 1/2 primers in the Hornady brass. This is my "go to" load for tthis rifle. I can get a little higher velocity using 40.5 grains of WC 297 in the hornady brass, but the accuracy is not as good.
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