225 FTX - Going the other way too

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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby Siringo » Sun May 23, 2010 10:18 am

Hornady did a fantastic job coming up with a combination that maximizes the performance of this cartridge -- within its design parameters (pressure). This is true of all their designs. It is becoming increasing difficult to "up one" the factory cartridges. Not like in the past where factory ammo was so - so. As hand loaders we could easily beat velocity and accuracy. So they did what we normally would do -- find a combination that works over a broad spectrum. Now, we are hard pressed to match factory performance on many cartridges. Our 37 grain load with the 250 bullets exceed factory velocity and seems to be just as accurate, but I am sure we are a little above the pressure limits they have imposed on themselves.

Hoot -- Keep up the fantastic work on this 225 FXT.
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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby Hoot » Sun May 23, 2010 9:34 pm

OK, so here's the summary on the 225 / Lil Gun experiments.

For five shots using Lil Gun, COL 2.15"

Just the taper crimp
Wt. 37gr 38gr
Vel 1 2325 2176
Vel 2 2171 2263
Vel 3 2313 2376
Vel 4 2252 2204
Vel 5 2265 Error
Avg 2265 2255
SD 61 89

taper crimp + 1 normal width FCD crimp off cannelures
Wt. 37gr 38gr
Vel 1 2190 2295
Vel 2 2278 2261
Vel 3 2323 2190
Vel 4 2292 2271
Vel 5 2197 2260
Avg 2256 2255
SD 59 39

taper crimp + 2 normal FCD crimps both off the cannelures
Wt. 37gr 38gr
Vel 1 2288 2168
Vel 2 2140 2134
Vel 3 2122 2165
Vel 4 2251 2313
Vel 5 2247 2160
Avg 2210 2188
SD 74 71

taper crimp + 2 narrow FCD crimps both on the cannelures. Required COL 2.08"
Wt. 37gr 38gr
Vel 1 2243 2260
Vel 2 2242 2294
Vel 3 2196 2269
Vel 4 2242 2317
Vel 5 2181 2296
Avg 2221 2287
SD 30 23

While applying two narrow crimps over the cannelures in the bullet tightened up the SD, I now believe Neck tension alone is not the solution.
Also, the two rather deep narrow crimps on over the cannelures opened the groups beyond what I've come to expect.

Control group using 37 gr Alliant 2400 with just the taper crimp.
I have 2400 loads done in the other 4 weight increments, but ran out of time.
Wt. 37gr
Vel 1 2316
Vel 2 2371
Vel 3 2303
Vel 4 2330
Vel 5 2340
Avg 2332
SD 26

I hope to get my hands on enough WSR primers to load up 4 sets of 5 shots or 5 sets of 4 shots of Lil Gun to see how significant the difference is between them and the BR4 primers. If you just go on accuracy alone, the Lil Gun does a stand-up job with the BR4 primers. I have a 100 yard target with 10 shots in a 2 inch group with 5 of those shots in the 1 inch bullseye. Kinda weird considering velocity extreme spread of 200 fps among those 10 shots. I guess at 100 yards, with 225gr bullets, that amount of speed change doesn't equate to much change in POI.

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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby Hoot » Mon May 24, 2010 5:58 am

Siringo wrote:Note that Remington's load also uses a SR primer. Would like to get one of their rounds and pull apart to check the powder type. Remington will certainly be using their own 71/2, not Winchester. I have a box of 30 Remington AR and those are also SR primers and the powder is a fine grained stick, not ball.

Normally one would not notice the velocity difference -- until they bought a chrono --


Seeing is believing. Here are two images from 6mmbr.com, done by a fellow who took pictures of several primers igniting as an indicator of power. Unfortunately, he didn't do the WSR. Perhaps he too, could not get any...

CCR BR4 (what I've been using)

Image

Remington 7 1/2 (what I intend to use going forward)

Image

Good food for thought and the 7 1/2 are available here and there.

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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby bushmeister » Tue May 25, 2010 8:03 pm

gunnut wrote: I hope Bushmiester will chim in on the accuracy! We did manage to hit several 2 liter bottles of water at 100yrds. with my reloads. Devastating! Ripes them apart! They are hotter then factory! May have to fine tune for accuracy. But, We will see what that looks like when I hit 45grs.


Sorry, I've been (and still am) out of town. fwiw, I'd hate to testify to the accuracy, because it wasn't what we were testing, but they were hitting what they were supposed to. WC put three in the ten ring at 100 yds leaning against a post, so they are accurate enough. we just didn't test them on the bench for accuracy. They were definitely hotter than factory as they knocked over a 14" diameter log, where my factory loads would't..(much to the awe of the other shooters at the range :D ).

Hoot, as always excellent reading material. I'd hate to know what you could do if you could get your shooting in year-round.
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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby Hoot » Mon May 31, 2010 12:53 pm

I've updated the chart at the beginning of this thread. You may have to refresh your browser to flush the old image from your cache.

I have one remaining set of data points to record. Those are more loads using Alliant 2400, though I suspect the pressure will stack up too quickly to make is useful to achieve high velocities. It's just that I have them loaded up already. I suppose I could pull them use the bullets to run some Lil Gun loads above 41gr or use the brass to run some more 200 FTX loads with Lil Gun. I'm running out of serviceable brass.

Best loads so far accuracy vs velocity are 38gr Lil Gun with Remington 7 1/2 primers (1" 5 shot group) and 41 gr Lil Gun with Remington 7 1/2 primers (1" 5 shot groups.

I've got a stack of target images if you're interested in a specific load. Here's the above-mentioned two:

38 gr Lil Gun Rem 7 1/2 Primer 2.12 COL 100 yards
Image

41 gr Lil Gun Rem 7 1/2 Primer 2.12 COL 100 yards
Image

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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby bighole » Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:08 am

Any of you tried the cci 41 primers? I have a few hundred wsr left but somewhere in between 5-6k no 41. Haven't loaded any yet myself , still compiling info/materials.
"I always herd there were three types of suns in Kansas , sunshine , sunflowers , and sons-a-bitches" The outlaw Josey Wales
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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby Hoot » Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:56 am

bighole wrote:Any of you tried the cci 41 primers? I have a few hundred wsr left but somewhere in between 5-6k no 41. Haven't loaded any yet myself , still compiling info/materials.


If you want to send me a tray, I'll run them, chart them and add them to the graph. I don't have any myself.

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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby bighole » Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:24 pm

I used them today on a starting load. Looks like they will work fine. I'm just beginning the 450. What books have load data for this cal. in them. Is the info the same as that little sheet Hornady put out.
"I always herd there were three types of suns in Kansas , sunshine , sunflowers , and sons-a-bitches" The outlaw Josey Wales
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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby Hoot » Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:27 pm

At the range today fire forming .284 cases, I took some experimental loads that seemed too good to be true for an accuracy load.

Here's the recipe:
Hornady 450b Once Fired Brass, Tumbled, Sorted by length 1.694"
Flash Holes and Primer Pockets normalized
Standard resizing using the Hornady decapper
Deburred mouth inside and out
CCI BR4 primers
35gr Alliant 2400
225 FTX Bullet seated to 2.15 OAL
Hornady Taper Crimp to .477
No expander die
Average Velocity for 10 rounds = 2222 fps
Standard Deviation 5.6 !!!
Little to no sooting
No signs of case distress. Supra-Web diam .5005"
75 deg F Altitude 1000 Ft. RH 65%
5-shot groups at 100 yd
1.125"
0.975"
Best 4 of 5
.625"
.750"

I didn't really feel like I was in the zone. These just flew magnificently. I swear it was like I could do no wrong. Highly recommend.

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Re: 225 FTX - Going the other way too

Postby wildcatter » Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:54 pm

Holy Cow Hoot! 2400 doesn't have much chance for detonation and isn't known for any real problems, but for us guys that hunt the Arctic, it lights like there's NO-Tomorrow.

Soon we'll have this electricity in the Range Lab and I want to run your pressures, but I bet they'll be real good. I bet there was no sooting and at those speeds either, and any of those scopes with the BDC's in them will love what you're doing.

How was ejection?

For you new guys, you want to single shoot your loads, with the mag in, to see if the Bolt Hold-Open works, and look to see if the rims are trying to rip off, this will be because the bolt is opening too soon.

Try it again and see how repeatable the load is. ..t
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