225 FTX - Going the other way too

[Hoot]

snip... How was ejection?...snip
Try it again and see how repeatable the load is. ..t

I must live a charmed life or something. In 460 loads so far, I've been spared both FTF or FTE. I do clean a lot. I bring my cleaning stand and potions to the range every visit and usually clean every 20 rounds and before I leave. The last one is as much an opportunity to pause and chat with other guys there, possibly learn something, or to just ease back into reality from the zone before I drive. Unfortunately, I wasted most of my remaining stock of 2400 on that fire form fiasco, but I may have enough left for another run. I bought it for working the 200 gr FTXs and thought I'd try it with the 225s, this time on purpose.

From my experiments with the 200gr FTXs, the pressure with 2400 stacks up rather abruptly. One grain less it's great. One grain more and it's not. Very narrow window but it eclipses the SDs I've been able to obtain with Lil Gun. For only being 2 steps apart on the speed chart, they behave a lot different from one another. Not at all like the step from H110 to Lil Gun.

Hoot

[Jim in Houston]

At the range today fire forming .284 cases, I took some experimental loads that seemed too good to be true for an accuracy load.

Here's the recipe:
Hornady 450b Once Fired Brass, Tumbled, Sorted by length 1.694"
Flash Holes and Primer Pockets normalized
Standard resizing using the Hornady decapper
Deburred mouth inside and out
CCI BR4 primers
35gr Alliant 2400
225 FTX Bullet seated to 2.15 OAL
Hornady Taper Crimp to .477
No expander die
Average Velocity for 10 rounds = 2222 fps
Standard Deviation 5.6 !!!
Little to no sooting
No signs of case distress. Supra-Web diam .5005"
75 deg F Altitude 1000 Ft. RH 65%
5-shot groups at 100 yd
1.125"
0.975"
Best 4 of 5
.625"
.750"

I didn't really feel like I was in the zone. These just flew magnificently. I swear it was like I could do no wrong. Highly recommend.

Hoot

Looking through the 225 FTX Going the Other Way Too thread, the above recipe seems to be the "final" word on loading the 225 FTX into the Bushmaster 450 brass? Just asking.

[Hoot]

At the range today fire forming .284 cases, I took some experimental loads that seemed too good to be true for an accuracy load.

Here's the recipe:
Hornady 450b Once Fired Brass, Tumbled, Sorted by length 1.694"
Flash Holes and Primer Pockets normalized
Standard resizing using the Hornady decapper
Deburred mouth inside and out
CCI BR4 primers
35gr Alliant 2400
225 FTX Bullet seated to 2.15 OAL
Hornady Taper Crimp to .477
No expander die
Average Velocity for 10 rounds = 2222 fps
Standard Deviation 5.6 !!!
Little to no sooting
No signs of case distress. Supra-Web diam .5005"
75 deg F Altitude 1000 Ft. RH 65%
5-shot groups at 100 yd
1.125"
0.975"
Best 4 of 5
.625"
.750"

I didn't really feel like I was in the zone. These just flew magnificently. I swear it was like I could do no wrong. Highly recommend.

Hoot

Looking through the 225 FTX Going the Other Way Too thread, the above recipe seems to be the "final" word on loading the 225 FTX into the Bushmaster 450 brass? Just asking.

Absolutely not Jim. We need more folks on the benches, with good optics or lead sleds, developing better loads, with more kinds of bullets and powders. Actually, if someone else reports the same results as I got, maybe, just maybe, Eric will one day add them to the database and we'll have a central, easy to find, repository that has more than 2 year old, or older data .



I just stopped when I got a load that I liked, which is not Alliant 2400. That was just an experiment and it's kind of ok with the 200s. My go-to load is 38gr of Lil Gun. I believe that 2400 is too fast for this caliber with bullets above 200gr. The idea being to find a powder that:
A) fills the case all the way
B) burns at or above 98% about the same time the bullet leaves the barrel.
C) cycles the action
D) reliably delivers good groups.

Of course, the rules change as your barrel length gets closer to pistol class. The FTX's are so good at lower velocities, I have not spent much time pursuing as high a velocity as could be achieved. More along the lines of mild to shoot and accurate. Get the FTX's where you want them to go and they'll do the rest. The 200 and 225 are after all, pistol bullets. The 250 is more velocity sensitive.

When all is said and done, the frontal area is the same. I rather hit CXP2 game with a 200 FTX going 2500 fps than a 250 going 2200. As I'm fond of saying, "I'm not trying to kill two abreast." At those velocities, the 200 has more ME and TKO factor. The only reason the 225s get the call is because for some mysterious reason, Hornady charges half as much for them.

Now with armored game like hogs, the rules change. I have no experience with armored game. I also don't shoot people for a living, so I have no interest in barrier penetration.

By all means. Test and Share.

Hoot

[BD1]

I think the both the 225 and 250 grain FTX bullets fly really well with a wide variety of loads. My load for the 225 grain is .284 brass, fed 210 primers and 43 grains of WC297. This load is significantly different from Hoot's, about the only thing they have in common is the accuracy

The 297 may be a bit slow for the 225s. The 2400 may be a tad fast. Perhaps canister H110 or 296 may be ideal? Give some a try and report back.

BD

[Jim in Houston]

Thanks Hoot and BD. Since I am loading the 250's with Lil Gun, I will try the 225's with Hoot's 38 gr suggestion, when I get some. Main reason for intererst in the 225's is cost factor, and I am almost out of my "free" 250's that I got from Hornady with their offer on the purchase of press kit and dies.

I also need advice on a chronograph. I will search the data base and post a separate topic, if I can't find anything.

[Hoot]

Thanks Hoot and BD. Since I am loading the 250's with Lil Gun, I will try the 225's with Hoot's 38 gr suggestion, when I get some. Main reason for intererst in the 225's is cost factor, and I am almost out of my "free" 250's that I got from Hornady with their offer on the purchase of press kit and dies.

I also need advice on a chronograph. I will search the data base and post a separate topic, if I can't find anything.

Jim, the Chrony F1 is a great, reasonably priced (89.99 shipped) unit. For $20 more, the Master version gives you a remote readout that you can mod to act like a more expensive Beta model with the addition of a push button momentary switch, assuming you can solder. I can show you what and where if you want. I do that kind of stuff for a living, so it was no big reach to give it a try. I went on to install all four push buttons it supports to get even more functions. The firmware is already in place and the holes are actually drilled inside the case. They just use a different plastic bezel to hide the holes.

I enjoy crunching numbers and reload many other calibers, so it was a smart move. YMMV

BD, have you measured the full case water weight for the .284 brass? I suspect there is a difference between them and the Hornady brass that is significant in term of effecting the internal ballistics. A couple of grains can move results substantially in Quickload.

Hoot

[BD1]

Hoot,

I've always found it a little tough to compare case volume in real terms as the internal taper varies along the case length, and between brands. Thus the amount of volume occupied by the seated bullet varies between brands. I've tried several times to correct Quickloads case volume parameter to my cases and I found enough variation from case to case, and meniscus to meniscus that I wind up using a "close enough" value in most cases. I'm certainly not a quickload expert. The way I use it is to enter real values for those variables that I can accurately measure, then I play with the other variables until I produce velocities that match what my chrony tells me over a range of powders and bullets. Then I leave those values alone while playing with predictions for other powders and bullets.

I should probably trim back one each from Hornady, Remington and Winchester to the base of the bullet to get some comparison of the case volume differences below the bullet which seems to the the resulting volume that affects the Quickload calculations.

BD

[wildcatter]

Hoot,

I've always found it a little tough to compare case volume in real terms as the internal taper varies along the case length, and between brands. Thus the amount of volume occupied by the seated bullet varies between brands. I've tried several times to correct Quickloads case volume parameter to my cases and I found enough variation from case to case, and meniscus to meniscus that I wind up using a "close enough" value in most cases. I'm certainly not a quickload expert. The way I use it is to enter real values for those variables that I can accurately measure, then I play with the other variables until I produce velocities that match what my chrony tells me over a range of powders and bullets. Then I leave those values alone while playing with predictions for other powders and bullets.

I should probably trim back one each from Hornady, Remington and Winchester to the base of the bullet to get some comparison of the case volume differences below the bullet which seems to the the resulting volume that affects the Quickload calculations.

BD

BD, no need to wreck those cases. Seat the bullet with no primer or powder, as normal. Use a hypodermic syringe and fill the case to the primer pocket. Using the needle deep inside the case will get the air bubble out of the case, of course getting the water out to weigh it is tricky, but if you'll weigh the dummy cartridge before and after the fill, you'll get accurate results and won't wreck the case either..

..t

[Texas Sheepdawg]

Does water and smokeless powder weigh the same? Does a gallon jug of water, 8.34 pounds weigh the same as a gallon jug of smokeless powder? It seems to me water is denser than a smokeless powder.

[Hoot]

Does water and smokeless powder weigh the same? Does a gallon jug of water, 8.34 pounds weigh the same as a gallon jug of smokeless powder? It seems to me water is denser than a smokeless powder.

Water is generally the common unit of measure, for comparing case capacity whether you're here or in Timbuktu. So much that reloading powder has among it's specifications, Load Density as compared to water. It's kinda like measuring seating depth using an agreed upon datum point further down the bullet instead of based upon its tip. As long as everyone has a comparator, it doesn't matter whether the tips are dinged up or not.

Given the same charge weight of Varget, would you say these two cases have the same capacity?





They're the same cartridge.

The second image was after it was vibrated for 5 seconds to settle the powder. Water doesn't settle.

Hoot